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Hello and welcome back for another episode of the Future Ear Radio podcast!
For this week’s episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Michael Santucci – Audiologist, Founder and Owner of Sensaphonics and ASI Audio.
As an added bonus, A.U. Bankaitis joins us as a guest co-host for this episode too!
During our chat, the three of discuss:
– Mike’s backstory into Audiology and the origin story of Sensaphonics
– Developing services and products for musicians to help them preserve their hearing while performing
– Building Sensaphonics’ own earmold lab to ensure the highest level quality
– Michael landing his first client for in-ear monitors – The Grateful Dead – in 1992 (followed by Poison, Aerosmith and AC/DC)
– ASI Audio’s flagship product, 3DME In-Ear Monitor System, and the profound experience it provides hearing impaired musicians
– Sensaphonics’ new product, dB Check Pro – a sound level analyzer for musicians to use
– The state of music-based Audiology and Sensaphonics’ Gold Circle program
– How to collectively address and communicate safe audio environments for musicians and fans
– The many signed guitars that Mike has donated to the American Academy of Audiology Foundation’s Music & Hearing Research Grant Program (and the guitars that A.U. has purchased)
-Thanks for Reading-
Dave
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dave Kemp
All right, everybody and welcome to another episode of the teacher ear radio podcast. This should be a fun one. Today, we’re joined by Dr. Michael Santucci as the guest. And with me co host team is A.U. Bankaitis. So wanted to bring her on to add a little color commentary, a little heckling, for Mike as he tells his story. So, Michael, why don’t you maybe let’s kick things off with you just kind of sharing how did you get into audiology? And then how did Sensaphonics, you know, sort of derive and how did that begin?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Yeah, the the how I got into audiology is a mystery. And I think that most audiologist will probably tell you the same thing. There wasn’t like, you know, I had deaf parents or I had some, some ya know, history with hearing loss. And I want to, I don’t know, I started like most people, as a speech pathologist in the hated it. And I was forced, and I was forced to take an audiology course. And what I did, it was very, very interesting theories, I thought, Oh, that’s a lot more interesting. And so that’s really how it started for me. And when I finished with my masters, which at the time was unless you’re a redo and researcher was what you got. My father said to me, so as he you’re sure this what you want to do, and I told them, I don’t know Dad, I’ve never done it. And I think it’s gonna kill me right there on the spot. But that’s how I got started. Now, the music industry part of things, you know, I if there’s younger audiologists or people trying to start a business, I think that my, my journey might be of help some somewhat. I bounced around my first year, when those days and 1978. Seven, you, you couldn’t get a good job as an audiologist, most EMTs didn’t have one. And it took me three months to find a job. And he got hired at a trade winds rehabilitation center in Gary, Indiana, which is a, which is a preschool United Way Easter Seal funded facility with 500 kids ot PT, behavior disorders, we had eight kids of the deaf ed classroom, right. And that’s where I got stuck. Now. I lasted a year, because I hate working with kids. And I still do. So that was never going to fly. And I got out of it. Because in the day hearing aid, companies did not have audiologists working there. And in fact, we couldn’t even sell them. We would get in trouble with ASHA, if we sold hearing aids. So he would come around and they you know, give me new hearing aids and talk about it. He was ready to retire. He goes, You know what, I think you should replace me. You want to get out of here and like, oh, yeah, he goes, I can give you a job via hearing it as a hearing aid rep. And of course, I forgot all about getting my license revoked, because we’re supposed to do that. But that’s how I got out. So I got into hearing aid sales. And I was trying to get more business out of this industrial hearing conservation company here in Chicago and was hitting him up to to help him get an audiologist out because I’ve got plenty of people, I want you to work for me. And so he gave me a big, big offer. And I went with Bob Conley doing hearing conservation and a mobile van. So that was three years out of college. So I just switched it up three times, the first three years trying to find something that clicked right. And this really clicked but after two years, he dumped me because he was afraid I was getting too smart and good to compete with him. But I was also consulting, he had two contracts of the antes. And so he told me, you can have the anti gun drugs, I don’t want them anymore. I went into private practice sink or swim. Here’s no life preserver. And so I grew the practice that way, and then was looking for a way to say, hey, we’re, I’m looking at this guy is working for industrial. He was one of the very first ones and he does really well even though there’s a lot of competition. And it seems like everybody that started something that a lot better. So I thought what can we get on the basement floor, and then a bunch of musicians because I either way, so I should pre preempt this by saying My dad was a trumpet player, got a scholarship to college and a trumpet and then quit because of World War Two but had his own big band after that. And so my two sisters and I all played instruments. They played multiple instruments. Our house was full of music, so I knew lots of musicians, all my friends played saw the den so we really had a lot of music around us. And so I had a band that came to me and they said, you know we just made our first LP and we’re really successful but our speaker is a female inch He’s also an actress and she says her ears are ringing, She’s witty, because she doesn’t want to lose her hearing. So please help us and I go up, when it’s over those foam ear plugs in and they go, have you ever tried listening to music with those Indigo? No. And I tried to play my trumpet, and I’m like, hold, gosh, nobody could use these. And I’m realizing it’s not that musicians don’t care. They’re uninformed. And there wasn’t any good tools for them to protect themselves. So I started on this path to try to develop stuff.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Was that the moment because here, you know, music audiology is a emerging, you know, subspecialty, right. So did back in the day. So did it click with you at that moment? Like, oh, maybe this is the path I need to go down? Or was this like, Oh, I’m helping one. When did it click that you’re like, oh, no, I
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
this was like, I was opening I go, You know what? Musicians they care. Because I’d say to my friends, oh, you know, I could work with musicians, but they don’t care. They could just turn it down. And they said, well, they can’t turn it down. There’s a drummer in their band. And you have to be louder than the drummer. And, you know, and I don’t think so I thought this is something I’m passionate about. And there’s a need for it. And it doesn’t violate the laws of man or your higher beings. And so I thought I’d give it a shot. And that’s really it. I was hoping for the best. And tried a bunch of filtered earplugs with notes, filters, these little hearing aid filters, thinking, hey, I’ll drill a hole through it. And that’ll sound better. That actually did sound better, but it wasn’t flat. And need Killian, who happens to very luckily be in the same geographical area as, as me said, Gee, I hear you’re working with musicians look at this thing. And he showed me the AR 15. And that’s when the filter was about the size of a nickel. It was so big. In those days.
Dave Kemp
What era was this?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
What year?
Dave Kemp
Yeah, do you remember five?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Okay, 8519 85 Were you bored yet? David? Nah,
Dave Kemp
I was born in 89
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Oh, God. All right. So Michael and I will just continue to talk to one another.
Dave Kemp
Yeah, okay. All right. So so moving on. So at call the salary shows we would meet
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
I think I had a couple of big clients that were interested in protecting when was the bass player for a band called The Pat Metheny group, very famous, jazz fusion high end and Steve rodby, also a producer for all these movies and all this stuff very, he wanted to protect his hearing. And I had somebody in the Chicago Symphony, the second chair violist, who also was very interesting, so So I put the year 15 on him, and they freaked out that this was something that they could actually use. And so I wrote in medical problems for performing artists, I co authored an article with Dr. Cecil hurt my my mentor, who was a bozo neurologist new asked, but but he was just the biggest genius in the world and supported me the whole time. In fact, he gave me without rent his clinic to use off hours to develop my business. He was so supportive. And so I always mentioned Dr. Hart. He’s just a wonderful British stray notch guy, but he was the probably the top disease specialist in the world back in the 80s. I mean, he was the guy everybody came to see us from all over the place. So anyway, he and I co authored the article. And then the next thing you know, I became famous for writing this thing about this plug, because I nearly wouldn’t do that. Right. It’s it’s easy to be famous as the expert when you’re the only one and you’re definitely the expert. And I remain the only one for a number of years and then Marshall chasen showed up on the scene from Canada. And he was trying to do mainly the same things. But although his path was different, he was mainly into classical music and non amplified music, which I was too but I was the whole everybody, you name it. And so that was it.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
So you know what, so why aren’t there more music audiologists out there now?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Okay, so that’s a good question. The thing is, they’re first off, though, it depends on your motivation. Right. So a lot of people in audiology through the years you know, I’ve taken on students, many students probably 60 or 70 students, we’ve taken four part time and I’ve had how many fourth years at least six and they’re all in fact many of them are still using audiologist have their mail yet. Boris said it Shannon Switzer, you so these are people that did develop that and it one Vasquez and then of course people that took me course like free Ward ensure and all these really yet Music Music audiologists because they were passing Shouldn’t about it and they wanted to do something. Other people want to do it because it’s cool to work with a musician, you get to go to the show, right? And who cares about their hearing, just take the era depressions and bye bye. And I, I’m a music audiologists, and I am like, Oh, that’s really good. So how do you show them how to use them safely? They go, what I go, you’re given them an earphone that goes over 140 DB, how do you show them how to use it right? And they look at you like, so a music audiologists who’s somebody who actually wants to learn about the dangers, the solution is all that’s been developed by myself and others before them to try and say this works to get people to protect their hearing. So I think the motivation is different. Interestingly, I, a lot of audiologists would call me and say, I don’t know what to do. And in the early days, when I first started this in the 90s, what I made Grateful Dead was my first band for in ear monitors in 1992. And I was so pumped because it put me on the map, there was only one other company and now I’m on the map. And again, I’m getting Poison, Aerosmith, AC/DC, all in this same fall after I did that. So it was fantastic.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Well, I was I was just curious as to why aren’t there more music, audiologists and one of the things that I
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
won’t, so they would come and ask me, and so I figured I can’t go all over the country and fly to steep visited LA and I was traveling everywhere, because he was the only one doing it. So I ran a course called gold circle. And I had about 15 audiologists that showed up and we had a two day session, this is what you do. Here’s a live band, here’s how it works. And we did them periodically, and I had over 100 people, but then I just couldn’t do it anymore. It wasn’t cost effective. So now there is a gold circle virtual course we just launched about two months ago. And it’s five hours of streaming of what you need to do with anybody from symphony to regular bands clinical practice, where they come in your office, all the different products, well, how they work, why they work, why they don’t work. I mean, it’s very full five hours worth of material, you have 72 hours to stream it. And there’s a half a credit for CPUs on it. So it’s, it’s good. And I think that people if they’re interested, we’ll go on there when it first launched, I had about a dozen people in joined in right away, but and there’s the tire kickers right? And they’re kinda like woowoo I’m not sure. And I’m like, okay, don’t take it that. But then people show up at your practice and the you want it and you’re good at turning them away, because they’re a musician. What are you doing with them? That doesn’t hurt their hearing? Because you’re supposed to be ethical in that.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
So do you think that’s the biggest misconception that like audiology students or audiologists who might be interested in becoming a music audiologist is that? They they think this is this is going to be cool, because I’m going to get tickets?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
And I’m going to think so I don’t I don’t, I don’t think it’s it’s up. Right. So I’m just like, ones that aren’t students, same thing? I don’t think it’s because they think it’s because I think everybody, look, don’t get me wrong. It’s cool. It is cool, either. It’s not like I’m saying don’t think of it as cool because it is I mean, I just, you know, I just went to three shows in the last two weeks of people that I’ve worked with for 20 years. And you know, it’s fun, because I sit backstage and want to show do all this fun stuff. And, and they respect you because you’re treating them you’re not selling them something. You’re not doing a service by taking an ihren pression for a product that you know nothing about. But you will take it your impression and BB veteran a hearing test. The real danger is these companies in the music industry don’t care. They’re they’re like anybody where they’re not audiology companies. They’re selling companies like you know, they don’t they don’t look at this stuff. They want to know what sells so more speakers sells more ear monitors, and we can charge more money. So let’s make more speakers. Does it sound better, you can’t make the bandwidth any wider. You could only bring it up in amplitude volume, right? And you can with that you can make them because it’s digital little sections you can bring up and everybody thinks it’s so cool. But it ruins hearing right at audiologists don’t know this so they go out and make a 10 speaker your monitor. Here’s his typical example. And this is why a few people that seem musicians, they’re all coming out of the woodwork to get plugs or ear monitors right? They see an audiologist. So this guy comes to my office I will mention names. Chorus, three nights sold out at City winery in Chicago, r&b crooner singer, he’ll be in his late 40s comes in tells me you know that he’s been wearing ear monitors he said three different sets from different companies that are all plastic, and that his beard has been worn Meanwhile, rubber silicone that isolates them, they really love him and he wants to try the switch. Okay, so we talk about the procedure, which is for me, I’m gonna go over this full two page case history and look at your ear and hearing and music history to decide what’s happening to you and how we can prevent it from getting worse. I’m going to teach you about how your ear gets injured and why. So you have some respect for your hearing. And then I’m going to examine your ear as a way to check your hearing and Okay, great. You won’t believe how good my hearing is. He says, they said, Oh, really, would the audiologist tell you? And he said, What do you mean? I said, Well, when they tested you, what did they tell you? Because I never got a hearing test. You saw three different audiologists? Yes. And they never gave you they never offered one. I never heard I didn’t think about it. But they never offered me one. All right, well, you won’t believe how good my hearing is. Because why ban freaks out and how low I kick laying. In white ears. I’m like, okay, so I put him in the booth. I test his right ear. And sure enough, he’s flat 20 Beautiful. Just his left ear. He’s got a 70 DB for Cana, oh, man. And I go in there and I said, Are you taking your left ear phone out? All the topic? Why? And I showed him and he literally started tearing up he cried. Nobody told me it was his was to do that. Nobody said I wasn’t supposed to do that. I’m all about protecting my earring. I didn’t know I was hurting myself. Oh, wow. And I unilateral. You’re not noticing it? It’s so you know, it’s so slow and developing sounds like you lose it after one. Show it? You’re doing it every night after four years. Yeah, your hearing keeps going down. And you’re not noticing yet because it’s at 4k speech. You’re not going what with one good hearing one good ear so he didn’t know. But even if the audiologist dummy didn’t know anything about ear monitors and tests if they hearing they would have seen a small 4k not they would have seen it grow bigger than extent they would have seen and grow bigger than next time and without knowing anything. Say you’re getting injured in your left ear. Well, that’s when they take out maybe I shouldn’t do that. It’s malpractice sure if we of course I didn’t say that to him, but he could go back and Sue all three of these people. And it certainly been the point the point is don’t you care enough about people that we’re going to do it the right way? Take an era depression and then see you later I got my 50 bucks and met a rock star I mean, really?
Dave Kemp
So I want to go back to the you know, history of Sensaphonics and all that. So we were at 85, you were talking about you meet Mead Killian, you, you know, he tells you Alright, maybe put a filter in this thing. How did the and then eventually you you kind of land grateful that as like one of your Well, I was having made
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
by outside your mold labs, I actually work because I kept dumping him because they just weren’t doing it for me. And I’m not mentioning any names, but there were four labs that I ended up being getting very frustrated with. And they all want to use vinyl, because it’s easier and all that and it was shrinking and whom I kind of went viral. I want silicone now. Don’t you want repeat business? I go on that at the expense of their hearing because they think they got an ear plug in. They don’t remember it doesn’t fit as stated as it did three years ago. They just think they’re protected. Oh, yeah. Or I don’t think come in every year for a hearing test. I go. No, they tell me to they don’t want maybe 20% of her lucky, right? They’ll show up when they lost an earplug or something happened and they get ready. But
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
so out of frustration with these labs is when you decide on
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
what to do and I ran into through a friend in England I met the biggest remote lab LC I don’t know if you know LC they are they have, I don’t know 30 Labs in Europe. They’re huge, huge, huge, huge. Shawn Ellison and he said to me that he didn’t like any of the people here in the states that read your mobile app that he’d be glad to train us for no charge, just to put a thorn in their side so I’m like okay.
Dave Kemp
And that’s awesome. What he did was a new
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
process training that’s awesome.
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
I mean, it was a new process now it’s the standard but it was cold cure silicone you didn’t bake anything you just have to bake sir would go and you make like a gig. Big a big cake thing. But at the beginning you take it out. This is cold carry right. Then do anything. You put it in a pressure pot to get the bubbles out and that’s it. So that’s how we learned to do it. And it was super soft silicone. And, you know, I’m a perfectionist, so my poor lab techs had to become the same And I have two lab techs that have been with me almost 26 years. I swear they’re the two best in New Orleans. Nobody. And then the people have learned from them are now becoming really experts too. So it’s, it’s important.
Dave Kemp
Okay, that’s very cool. So you, you basically you start the lab, you’ve identified your market, which is going to be musicians, and then when,
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
but I had the ear monitor thing. And that’s all different now you’re talking to electronics, and not just rubber earplugs? So that yeah, there. And so how do we do that? And I was having again, while I was doing plugs by some other companies, they were also building two ear monitors. In fact, Rexton was building them for me for a while. And they put the guy that was running and at the time when his delayed right, put his best people on it. And so I was, you know, they’re going in princes ears and the least famous rap stars, right? And they were awesome, because he had his best people on and then he left the company and the new guy goes, Why are we giving our best people to this guy orders this after you Bragg’s us. And I got the beginners and they started falling apart and people’s ears and all this horrible stuff. And I realized the only control you’re going to have is to bring it in house. Yeah, so we created the big lab next door, small lab kid growing now it’s three times the size. But slowly we grew. And then I added Vanessa six months after Chris and they’ve been there for forever. And then other lab techs are on but that’s kind of the story there. I thought focus focus of the company, though never ever left the realm of we’re here as audiologists trying to protect theory. It’s not how many drivers can we make how glitzy can we make it, all that stuff? That doesn’t matter. It’s important, but the important thing for me is to contribute to helping them not with his hearing and continue to keep on stage. Those that have lost hearing I have a device called 3dME. And it’s a it’s an it’s an active music ear monitor with active mics and apps that you can switch it around so there is a woman out here I can tell you because she’s gone up like with it. Nancy Williams is a very famous piano player and and also very famous in the hearing impaired community because she writes about, you know, audiology and audio problems in how hearing aid suck when she’s tried to make them good for music. And doctor how they’re Melia convinced her to try this 3dMe and she wrote a review. And she said, I finished. The first thing I did was lay away piano and cry. Oh Is anybody heard it sound that way in 30 years. And so this is what we love to do. Right? Right had another famous violin player and an acoustic neuroma on his right side. So we get to hear his violin, but he could never hear anything else on stage. So we have a cross thing. So we put the mic on his right ear, we sent that signal over to his left ear monitor. And he was able to hear the rest of the band who implanted it. So these are the kind of things that help us, you know, help them. And I think, you know, we use, like I said, I’m fighting against Logitech and, you know, lucid and all these mega companies with billions of dollars and, like 10 people when we add that, how do we still get, you know, all these famous musicians because we do the right thing and they realize we’re, we’re about helping them hear better on stage and
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
word of mouth is very powerful. So you know, you’re talking about, you know, being involved in innovative products. I know you have, you know, a half a dozen patents, and you’ve been involved in engineering some products, is there one product that you’re most proud of?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Or oh gosh, I would say that were they like
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
a shell drain Did you love them either one. That’s the way I love them
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
all equally, but the one that I think is the biggest impact product just got launched. And it’s called DB check Pro. And what DB check Pro does, as you plug your whatever earphone I put all my competitors on others 149 in ear monitor and earphone on there. You pick your your phone, you plug in and you start playing like normal and it will tell you how loud in dva you’re listening to your earphones. And then it converts that to minutes allowed. So it’s a dose because dose I did 100% dose when I was doing dose right I started the dose 100% dose and they go they’re all high fiving each other and I’m like dude, that’s bad. Not at all. So we got 100 Right, so they don’t understand. So I think that’s the big problem, right? They they they don’t understand it but they understand you have 20 minutes and the lower shows an hour. Maybe I should turn down right I mean, look at all these audiologists that still take your impressions and don’t care about doing anything else, or don’t do anything else. Use the product you give them and say here, this will tell you how loud you’re listening. Me and it’s almost obligatory that you sell this to somebody because they don’t know they always got it out loud it is I don’t think it’s too loud here, you know. And this, I’ll tell you this, I’ll help you save your hearing. And so to me, that’s the it’s it’s patented, is nothing like it in the world. And one of my competitors, ultimate ears wants to sell it. So I’m taking liability away from everybody, right? They all go, Oh, your monitor is used properly will protect your hearing. And then you ask them, How do you do that? And they go, don’t turn them up to loud news. Oh, why would you ever thought of that? I mean, they don’t know what to tell anybody. They don’t know, their their music companies. I mean, only on ecologist in this thing. So he has no, you know, they can say it because it sells more. But they have no proof.
Dave Kemp
I wanted to ask you like so that’s, that makes it’s very, like, unsurprising that that’s how the music companies would operate. But for the musicians, what’s kind of their reaction? And like, what do you tend to pick up when you’re interacting with that new client for the first time? Like? Do they kind of have an idea that there may be susceptible to putting this all over
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
the board? David, it’s all over the board, right? So many have taken time to research stuff. Some don’t know, but here’s what I will say to you. There are very few that don’t care, or because they don’t care. There are I get some guys in on metal bands, and they’ll come up with the guy, I don’t get it. And I go well, alright, that’s your earring man on you, you decide, I’m just telling you, here’s the consequences. You decide, okay, and that’s fine. And it’s up for broad choice, free world, all that stuff. But the rest of them are either uninformed, misinformed, or are under informed about what’s going to happen to them if they turn this thing out loud. Really, and if they knew that, if they knew it. And so when they come to my office for an appointment, I, they go, I don’t want to do the hearing test or the or the education just make molds. And I said, Well, I don’t do that. But here I can give you a list of audiologists that do in Chicago? Or do you an audiologist? Yes. And don’t you make these but I’d be glad to make them. Somebody else does the impressions, I’ll make them for you. But you want to see me as a doctor. That’s my other hat. And I’m the Doctor and this is what we do. And if you don’t want to do that, then go see another doctor that will do what you want. And they never want it because it’s another appointment there. All right, all right. I know you’re paying the same two. I don’t charge extra for hearing test. It’s a first office visit, including your ear impressions and you want to cut yourself short. That’s fine, but I will do it here. So they forced to do it. And then I educate them. I swear I will tell you 100% of them go. Oh my god, I’m so glad you made me do that. I’m so glad you told I learned so much. Oh gosh. And it opens their mind. If I tell him this is why you add hearing what’s the purpose of hearing? The purpose of hearing for humans that early days is survival. Not music, not speech. It was to stay alive. And so it’s this amplification system need for a quiet world that you can hear a small sound really far away. And now we throw all his amplification on it. And it’s those speakers go Jerry aerosols aren’t built for that. So they get injured, if that makes sense to them. And they go Oh, that makes sense. Sometimes that I go hold while here but I can’t replace them like the cones in the PA they’re gone forever. Oh, and they start realizing the importance and they talk about early cognitive decline and untreated hearing loss and they start freaking out.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
So do you think over time more musicians are informed or is the faint on the heart of the music industry like it? I can’t believe the first
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
my inversnaid that show with earplugs au as in the late 80s and here in Chicago and there is about 10,000 people that came to this thing and at my little table with my earplugs did not sell one and I was the laughingstock of the entire you want to see something funny look at these earplugs for musicians. Oh I’m letting the pole Oh yeah,
Dave Kemp
it was very disheartening as having the last laugh now. Yeah.
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Whatever you know and so is that the point for people try to start a business is that if you believe that the market is there, if you believe in what you’re doing is is is good. And if you really enjoy what it is then you have to persist if you want it to work very rarely do you get hit it right off the bat you are like a millionaire you know there are people but it’s a long struggle right and it’s been a struggle it still is for me just so you do I’m not I’m not, you know, making Starkey kind of muddy here. It’s a little company.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Well, but the market is there. But my question is, I’m surprised, like, you know, obviously audiology, the profession can do a better job in generating public’s awareness with these issues. But the music industry to I would sense, you’d have some level of responsibility, but really
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
listen to music and but that’s a big, better bigger the music industry is at the musicians themselves. It’s their management, is that the venue who’s retiring out? Yeah, no, no, exactly. And that’s the problem. So if I’d been in discussions with some I can’t mentioned who on this radio broadcast, but there are there is growing interest from big promoters worldwide. The the the the voice of music, and live venues and hearing loss prevention, which a lot of audiologists are part part of is the World Health Organization’s listen safe initiative. Nake, listening safe. I’ve been on that committee since the core of it started in 2015. Now, I’ve been at it eight years, I think I’m the longest standing member. But we went after first off they’ve they’re so brilliant. They’re they Shelly chata is an en t from India. She is the director and she’s brilliant. So they brought in stakeholders, the first meeting bunch of people from standards organizations, researchers, a few dummies like me out there working with musicians. And, and these, you know, public health people. And then they brought in Apple and Bose and, and Samsung, and Sony and all the players and they said you guys are making products that hurt everybody, every day, there’s a warning label on a pillow telling you not to get too close to an open flame. And yet, millions of people are ruining their hearing. And there’s no warning. We’re not telling you to force you to do anything. We just want to tell you when to warn people and how to warn them. They don’t have to do anything and maybe put a children’s you know, safety thing on it. And Apple jumped in, right Apple does it if you have iOS, they tell you when the rooms to live in the earphones are too loud and all that stuff. So now we’re after venues. And they did the same thing. They brought sound companies in they brought and they’re like, Okay, we took a worldwide survey on 20,000 concert goers. And there was some criteria you have to go quite often Right? Or concerts too loud, not loud enough or just right. 8% not loud enough. And I swear, because how many what 888 said it’s that loud enough? And I said that’s always good to be there. If their ears could bleed and their eardrums break from moderate? Nadine, they’d say it wasn’t loud. So, so I get that right. But 72% too loud. 72%. Wow. And the others were okay. Right. So. So now you get the majority of people that or listening to a show, they wish they would turn it down. And then we go to the engineers and they go how What’s the sound levels at front of house for most most shows? And they’ll say oh, between 100 and 105 DBA? At most arena shows, right? And so we go okay, well, if you brought it from 105 to 102. At f8, the crowd would notice that much? Well, probably not. You know that they could be at a twice as long if you did that. So now we’re trying to educate the engineering world. So there is the Audio Engineering Society, which I’m a member of. And I had a technical committee on hearing and hearing loss prevention. My cohort is on the loudspeaker, Adam Hill. He’s also on the World Health Organization. And he’s doing the same thing for loudspeakers and engineers, and they’re the ones trying to push this stuff. So it’s going it’s just not in the United States. And in fact, of all the people in this world, that health group, who else is on this committee, I think two people from the US with me, it’s Canadians, it’s people from all over the world, but I don’t know, AAA doesn’t even do that much with them, which I’m kind of surprised at and just it’s amazing to me because World Health is like they really got to go in for at least music and hearing loss prevention.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
So I request I have a quick question because, you know, as a music audiologist, you know, I’m seeing you you know, you’re involved in innovative products. You’re also involved in providing audiological services to I think I read somewhere 40 plus 1000 musicians across your career but then you’re also it makes me
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Oh, doesn’t it? So many do the math. Yeah, but spring chicken,
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
but then you also have done countless hours of educating the masses. And it’s not just the musicians, it’s whatever head of each of those three things. Is there one part that resonates with you the most or do you just love all of them doing all the
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
facts any that’s an equal, each one brings its own satisfaction, right getting audiologists, like, I had somebody come up to me that I respect and they go, you know, that had their extremely passed you up as far as being the music audiologist and I went, yay, a. Right. She’s like, she stood on my shoulder, she better do better than me, all of them. I love that ad. Oh, man, you guys are started with my knowledge, I am hoping that they all Excel. So that part is really great to see audiology in the field starting to get into this right, and we’re trying to grow it with the Gold Circle class, developing products is not satisfying to do it satisfying. If they weren’t really up to. It is not a fun, it’s not a fun journey. It’s not I wouldn’t recommend it for the, for anybody that doesn’t like to have to redo things a million times, because that’s product development. It’s just, it’s not fun. But, you know, having a few patents and things that really work to help people, you know, nobody else would do it. And so we did, I was signed in my office, it says nobody else is going to do it, and it’s not going to get done by itself.
Dave Kemp
I like that. So, you know, with regard to some of the hesitancy that you encounter some of the objections and all that from like the music community, does it confirm a bit of music people? Yeah, from the music people? Like are they are they just completely uninformed and and preconceived notions of like, this is going to distort the music if I’m using it or product?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
You know, I think the ones that think that mainly are people in the classical world, that 90 of bullfight people are very much especially in orchestra where there’s just kind of this stigma of anything non traditional, right? So if you’re putting something in your ears, no, I had to show that. And some don’t care. They want to protect themselves orchestras all over the place, they’ll do anything. They don’t care what it looks like, or sounds like others are like, Oh, my violin just doesn’t sound right. I go will get guess what, in about 10 years, it’s going to sound like that all the time. Like you have a plugin, you just won’t notice it as much because it’s slowly getting used to it. But I think David the biggest thing, and I think you’re trying to get to this but if not, I will say something to musicians brains. And this is the big classic thing that audiologists don’t get about music differences. Number one, their brains are so tree that if you were to take what so we did a study at Vanderbilt, an ear monitor will sound levels compared to floor speakers with they used to ft us right. And we said during the four speakers to which I like and I did a probe like measurement at the ear canal and then heard the ear canal resonance with a knee or seven seat. Okay, so it’s like taking measurements out here. So we’re recorded that level with the floor wedge, and then we put in an isolating rubber ear monitor, and told them to turn that to what they like. And I was like who this is at Vanderbilt, we have 100 people in the study I’m going to show everybody they turned it down receiving hearing and 98 out of 100 people turned it exactly the same. If there was 111 It was 111 it was an it and it was not even one dB. Normal people without a music background couldn’t do that if they’re liked. But their brains are so plastic sharp flat pitch tambor. You beat it into your head and you create this sound signature that yours. And if somebody changes literally one or two DB and bumping up, they look at you like what you do. So it’s really and one of the things that they learned along with that subconsciously, is love. So if you playing guitar at 100 DB, you put on your ear monitors and we’re gonna go to 100 That’s, that’s what your brains telling you. So the second part of the study, we said turn the floor monitor down to you couldn’t play anymore. Like it’s just not loud if you could hear two and a half dB. Right? Anything less than like you couldn’t hear enough. Okay, turn your ear monitors down. The average was six, but people go down six to be 10 DB. Oh, they sound good here. Right? So if you just listen there for a couple of weeks, you’re probably going to find this to be your new norm. And so it’s just retraining the brain to listen quietly. And one of the things again on the opposite side with 3dme as a tool to enhance people’s perception of music with bad hearing, right? And they always go oh, it’s old. You got 24 dB of gain total per octave. And I don’t know if that’s enough for my client, I go, this isn’t a speech environment. This isn’t a restaurant of 65. B, you’re going to show who’s at least 80 to 100 dB input. How much apple vacation do you need? You don’t need that like with thinking hearing aid when I tell you, Oh, they have too much occlusion effect. Oh, vented or pull went out? I go, No, that’s bad. So if brothers are only hearing aid answers, right, these are the things that you know. And so you’d think the solutions are the same and different. And that’s why it’s important to understand what music biology is. And they read it right away, musics come in, and musicians come in. And everybody that works with me and for me, are so well informed and so knowledgeable, that they’re blown away when they leave. They’re just blown away all of them. And that’s what you want. Because then they said we haven’t had advertising 20 years, probably, how many musicians do we see a week 20 to 30 a week. Right? Because we’re the place to go, they all talk that’s a place go see them, we’ve established ourselves. But you wouldn’t be that place. If we screwed up or if people work. You just got to have the knowledge. And that’s I think anybody could do that.
Dave Kemp
Totally, I mean, I just listening to you talk, if I were, you know, sort of like a young aspirational audiologist looking for, you know, a specific subset to sort of focus on this would be an interesting one. Because to your point, there’s a lot of opportunity and your customer demographic, more or less would be receptive to this because they inherently sort of understand what you’re saying and I
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
you know, they also understand DBS and frequencies at all of them, some of most of them have done some mixing on their own or some of these so they get it. So I did it is interesting. The other thing is advocacy is big, right? So for me to be an advocate I do with the World Health Organization, world hearing day, all this stuff, and I had bands, remote stuff, but there’s a group in Saudi Arabia that I got involved with, we’re gonna get into that story. But they they are a have a concert. First off, they had outlawed music in Saudi Arabia since the 40s. And in about, I think it was the year before the 2019 or whatever, before the pandemic, they said, it’s time to have music, we need to have music here. So they charged them day, they put on a huge concert, and they called me up and they said we’d like you to be part because our whole thing that we want to prevent tinnitus and hearing loss from music, this foundation part of this big show I go, how many came to the show us half a million. I said what? And he goes, that was our Woodstock. And so this year, they’re having it again, they expecting three quarters of a million. Oh my god. Oh my gosh, what if 50,000 a day, and they have me up there doing a panel discussion with these DJs and shit on how to protect your hearing, excuse my language, and tinnitus prevention stuff. And so they’re promoting, and they have a foundation and they asked me if they could help support. So what I have them doing, this is the next cool thing, which I think is really going to be a great contribution different than the products different than the educational thing. This is a database digitization of all those 30,000 records, is nobody has access to them. People, researchers from rush and Northwestern will come over and scan through then takes you know, 2020 charts, but three charts, man. I mean, that started in the 80s. Or we’re talking about a manila folder with results. Right with somebody’s name on it. Yeah. So that proj So this, the Foundation is funding taking and maybe you guys who helped me maybe you a you can help with this, too, is just to take the copy of the Audiogram and case history and then black out the name of the band so nobody knows who it is and put in the folder and those goes in and it gets to be go into a big digital digitized thing. You want to go look at these. They’re all there. Now they go, Oh, are you gonna put trumpet players ago, I’m not doing any of the work. I’m putting out the raw data. You guys figure out how many are trumpet players in there. And then you can compare all trumpet players as a data will be there. But that’s what I want to do because the only you’ve ever seen is like, Oh, we did an orchestra at a marching band for where college there was 300 people or something that said mean we do we have DJs we have world famous, you know, people we have band directors, you name it, man. It’s there. That’s there’s lots. So we I believe that contribution will help people research it a lot more. And my goal just so you know, is to go Create a new, safe listening standard for music that is not the one we’re using for working in a factory for 40 hours or 40 years with industrial noise pounding your cochlea in this scenario, I just think it could be different.
Dave Kemp
Yeah, as well as like differently. You’re kind of going to, you know, a area that I think would like, you know, it would all kind of like permeate out from if you can get the musicians on board the music industry, get the public made more aware when they go and attend a concert that there’s like signage now that showing like, you know, because and well, I was
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
just talking to one of these promoters earlier, we have limited time and space for promotion. I go, you have urinals, you guys want to go you have urinals. I go ask any guy you don’t look left or right, you look straight ahead. And it’s your chapter wall. And they usually have some cheap ad from a local plumber or something there you blitz something about hearing loss prevention, and plugs are available and some cool things that get people thinking about it. And in the back of the bathroom door in the women’s John. Anyway. Oh, wow. Yeah. I’m like, give it some effort a little bit. Right.
Dave Kemp
I feel like we would be remiss if we don’t talk about the guitars, the triple A guitars of which au owns a few.
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Well, somebody, somebody of the trio here, but three of them.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
I did on three different years. So Michael, I, Mike Well, I’ve heard of you before, but in 2007 When we were both started on the foundation board is when we ended up sitting next to one another and I don’t know made each other laugh. And I had a good time he did. A really good. But yeah,
Dave Kemp
which which guitar was the artist for the one that you bought?
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
saw the year one. His white goal? I think over the course of eight years, it was three years where I remember the silent auction at AAA and sponsored by the Foundation, having signed guitars and one of my biggest regrets is not bidding on a whole bunch because you had some
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
unbelievable cool and it was wasted. Unfortunately, audiologists that are cheap and don’t know so yeah, some kind of a public platform and had them verified. I mean, I had all of Bon Jovi all of Aerosmith. Couple guys from the Grateful Dead. Why did he go right?
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Did you had so spin wagon
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
and sticks in one of them?
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
There was one in particular Well, my one favorite musician, I never saw one of his autographed and we’ll keep that between us. But the first guitar that I actually bid on and I knew somebody was Jack and somebody was messing with me and I get an editing care because I knew how much I was gonna donate that funds to the foundation because it was all I believe, going to the music and Hearing Research Grant Program, perhaps I don’t know. But long story short, a mint green Fender guitar that was signed by all original members of the Dave Matthews Band the following year. I bid and got Dave Matthews guitar that he he was the only one who autographed it but he also drew a running rhinoceros that was farting. And the funny thing and then the last year and two it was 2009 and it was really sad because lo Roy Moore I believe that was a him he was the sex. Yeah, he suddenly had passed away. So the guitar that I ended up getting with the new band member I think Jeff coughs and so I have you gave Matthew guitars in the media wrote
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
that he did a caricature of himself.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Yes, I do. I do so and that’s someone with a recording rhinoceros.
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Oh, that’s a different one for writing read estrus was different.
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
I’m gonna look at them again. But I have three. I said they’re free. You’d have two artworks by
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
him. That’s all I’m saying. Those are those are an anything else. Believe me, though. Dave Matthews art work you do and that’s something
A.U. Bankaitis, Ph.D.
Yeah. Cool. So I have those thanks to Michael Sam Tucci. Well check out but
Dave Kemp
and so you were able to get the artists to sign the guitars that you were then able to auction off I mean, you have revenue
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
is funny, funny, David when I first started doing that They ask him and they go sugar or sugar and they go to the guitar to get us get me one of the sediment of those oh yeah okay. I didn’t ever Kate never can get because it was where to get direct access to shows later we forgot all about just you know railroad us but if you bring a guitar for them to sign they will see. So right by him by Omeka jar and you show up with a guitar and nobody said no. F let’s see Bob Weir didn’t want to because he never signs anything from the Grateful Dead body goes Bob, you’ve been a great for 30 years Ken Blake.
Dave Kemp
Did Bob actually sign one? Oh, yeah. That’s awesome. Was he your main contact? Or was Jerry your contact?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
Neither. That’s always the sound route. David, you’re nothing Dan’s very rarely. There’s some bad memories that we just clicked. So you know, Steve Winwood used to call me himself and we’d go out drinking and we’d go he came into town we went to see the planetarium because he’s into that a little bit. And so you know, that sort of thing. But that’s rare. You know, the guys from REO Speedwagon, always stop in the office with their entire we go out for lunch, it’s on them and that kind of stuff, but it’s funded, be, you know, all that, but none of them are really out there to be their friends. I’m there to help them. And they think everybody wants to be their friend. And you get a lot where respect when you’re all business that you’re not like, it’s such a big life. Here, here now shout out.
Dave Kemp
That’s so cool. This has been a great conversation, Mike, I’ve really enjoyed your, you know, telling us the history of sense of bionics and kind of the motivation behind why some of this stuff came to be. So I know that you have, you know, what you’re doing now with 3dme and your ASI business? What what does the future hold for you? What are you focused on for the next few years?
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
That’s a good question. I don’t know. Getting the, you know, I do know, here’s the thing I have, in May of next year, I’m co chairing the fourth conference of audio engineers and audiologists and in Copenhagen at all birds, Copenhagen campus, risk the ball Berg. And so that’s pretty exciting. Because it’s the people that designed the products, enter the people that like me, and you, be you that want to help people not so lose their hearing. So So I think that’s always good. Right to get both together. That’s coming up in May. I’ve got a World Health meeting. Coming up. I’ve got this thing in Saudi Arabia in December. So I’m active in advocacy, promoting getting the word out. All that I plan to stay there as far as the company goes. Yeah. Because you know, when I get fall, I have you guys. What’s your exit strategy? And how I say, Robbie, some of y’all see me laying on the desk. I’m glad got it, though. I’m supposed to be retired by now, but I just don’t seem to want to do it. So
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
as well. There’s more than No, it’s more. You know, David, it’s more things that have come up this gold circle virtual class took me two and a half years to put together and the DB check Pro and they’re all supposed to come like beaten bing, bing. Well, they all came at the same time, go through that pandemic. So dealing with four launches. And it’s crazy pandemonium? Yeah. So why does that all settles down? Who long? Maybe a couple of years, we’ll see. I think
Dave Kemp
I do want to just real quick touch on the gold circle thing? Because I do think that’s super interesting. So do you how do you actually become gold? Circle certified, if you will? And once you do, is there something on your website that I can direct people to Yes. And so we may see Diego or something like that. Here’s the closest gold circle advisor.
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
That’s it. And we’ve always done that. But how you sign up, just go to the sense of phottix.com website and sign up for the virtual gold circle course. And as you throw your money and you are you have 72 hours to stream the course, which is I think plenty of time but people have to budget it. What’s the 72 hours is up, that course goes away but there’s still almost two hours to downloadable material done by other audio Shannon Switzer who’s running our clinic and so they’re more detailed stuff. And so and I give a 20 points of takeaway. So they still remember what the The lecture was about. And so, what was the question? The call center call,
Michael Santucci, Au.D.
it they take the course if once they take the course they They have to take a test. And if they pass the test, they get their gold circle certificate. They also have to take it your impression properly, which is the biggest struggle for everybody. It’s a lost art. Right? What do you do do homes, you know, nobody goes in deep anymore into the year they take these scans and stuff. And I’m like, You need to have a deep beer impression and show us you could do it, I’d already figured good. Would you show us, then we’ll pass you. And it’s amazing. How many people don’t know how. And I’m like, you can cheat and have somebody else do it. But when they show up at our door, we turn them away. We don’t say making anyway, that impression is bad. Do it again, we were set it to another lab, we will do it. And so that’s it, we paid them gold. So they they can take a picture and post it on social media that their gold circle. And then they’re listed on our website. And so many of the artists, even our competitors from other companies that make any or monitors use our list the truth. So if you want to be you know, they know that gold circle list so they I know that from the audiologist say oh yeah, JH call me in western India, because they go and see who do we educate? We’d like to use them.
Dave Kemp
That’s great. Well, thank you so much, Michael. I really appreciate you coming on today. sharing your story. It’s super interesting. I look forward to the next time. Our paths cross at one of these different industry shows.
