This week on the Future Ear Radio podcast, I’m joined by the great Paul Harkness, CEO of Lantos Technologies. Paul sat down with me to share his journey across the past 30 years working in the hearing health industry, citing all the pitstops along the way and detailing some of the most memorable moments that stand out in the industry the past three decades.
Paul has worked for a wide variety of companies in the hearing health industry, ranging from hearing aid manufactures to member networks to where he is now, Lantos Technologies as the CEO. We talk a lot about how his perspective has been shaped throughout the course of his career and how he sees the industry evolving into the future.
Lantos is a 3D ear scanning company that uses a proprietary balloon membrane to map one’s ear canal. Upon completion of the scan, hearing care providers are able to then quickly send the patient’s ear scan off to the manufacturer’s lab to create some type of custom earpiece. Paul describes the advantages of Lantos’ 3D scans, both for provider and patient, and shares details on the new business model that the company has recently implemented.
As has been the theme on the podcast lately, if the name of the game right now is for hearing professionals to find ways to increasingly differentiate themselves from other avenues of hearing care, then Lantos fits into this theme. Another great tool to enhance the overall patient experience.
-Thanks for Reading-
Dave
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dave Kemp:
Hi, I’m your host, Dave Kemp, and this is Future Ear Radio. Each episode we’re breaking down one new thing, one cool new finding that’s happening in the world of hearables, the world of voice technology. How are these worlds starting to intersect? How are these worlds starting to collide? What cool things are going to come from this intersection of technology? Without further ado, let’s get on with the show. Okay, so we are joined here today by Paul Harkness. Paul, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Paul Harkness:
Hi, Dave, thanks so much for having me with you today. It’s an honor. I’m the CEO of Lantos Technologies, a company that manufactures balloon membranes for 3D ear scanning out of New Hampshire, and I joined the group in 2020.
Dave Kemp:
That’s awesome. Well, I appreciate you joining me on the podcast. The first time I met you actually was right when I joined Oaktree full time. I was at, I think like, it was like AAA or ADA or something like that. I remember you were the CEO of Elite at the time. I remember you, my dad and I sat down, and you’re one of the first people I met. It’s kind of funny, it’s like we had this conversation and now things have come full circle to where here you are on the podcast, new company. We’re going to get into that.
Dave Kemp:
But it’s interesting where the people that you meet along the way, they just have a tendency to come back around. That’s really cool and I’m really happy to have you here. I figured, as we get started, can share, I know you’ve been in this industry for a while, kind of like the Genesis of Paul Harkness coming into this space? Where did you first come into this industry from?
Paul Harkness:
Good memories, Dave. I remember it as well. It’s excellent how so many people stick in this industry. I think somehow in January, I will celebrate 28 years, almost my entire adult career in hearing. For a non-audiologist, I feel very blessed, but it’s been a circuitous route to get to where we are. It’s funny what you about your first full-time gig and remember meeting me. I remember, when I started in the industry, was at 3M, which in the ’90s had a hearing project. It wasn’t even a division.
Paul Harkness:
I grew up in St. Paul, so 3M was the Mecca. Had no idea that I’d end up in the hearing group. I started in human resources there in the ’90s while I was still in high school. Lo and behold, found myself in the hearing project. I remember being at a AAA supporting a couple of outside reps and I was a customer service inside rep. I remember walking into AAA in Fort Lauderdale with one of my outside reps and we couldn’t get two feet before this person would get interrupted by someone he knew.
Paul Harkness:
This happened all the way to the booth, which seemed like it took three miles to get there. It’s funny, I’ve said this to people over the last 3, 4, 5 years. I never understood how that person had all those connections. As you see now, even for yourself and certainly for me, over time, we become that person. You build the relationships. I think that’s what keeps a lot of us in this. I’m certainly proud to have built a long career doing this.
Paul Harkness:
But to answer your question, started at 3M, not because it was hearing, but because it was in my backyard. It was what I thought is the company I was going to work at. Ironically, they sold that project and all of the people in the late ’90s to ReSound Corporation at the time, even before they were part of GN, I believe. I remember to be honest, feeling very bitter. I thought I would be 3Mer forever, for life. I didn’t understand how they could sell us. So, it felt like, looking back, it was obviously an unbelievable blessing to me and helped kind of start the rest of my career in this space.
Dave Kemp:
So, you start at 3M, you wind up in this hearing project division by no intent of your own. That’s just sort of where you were placed. Then you start to become acclimated with this industry a bit. 3M then sells this division and the people within it to ReSound, so then did you join ReSound at this point?
Paul Harkness:
I did. I did. I went to that group and met some phenomenal people, some of which I continue to be close to, ironically enough, some that have been a big part of my currents, my current employment situation. So yes, I always wanted to be on the outside and be traveling and working with customers. I loved working with them over the phone. Of course, we didn’t have Zoom back then in the ’90s, but you built unbelievable relationships. I would just say that, I remember a rep that I worked with that had … It was a veteran by then in the ’90s, out of Atlanta.
Paul Harkness:
Richard Woods was his name. Richard, I remember him saying to me, “Paul, if you stay in this space for two years, you’ll never be able to leave.” I don’t think that’s true of everyone, but for many of us, even those of us that didn’t go to school for audiology, that went for business, it gets inside you, it gets inside your skin and your blood. I think what it comes back to for me is it’s a relationship business, both from the business level to the professionals, and of course from the professionals to the patients.
Paul Harkness:
I know, over time, as people have jumped into the industry from outside, many of them always refer to the fact that this is such an industry filled with help for consumers and an industry that’s making a difference and making an impact. Being that I was involved so young, and maybe I took that for granted over time, but it’s probably part of why I’ve stuck with it this long. I would also say that, in all of my positions throughout my career, even till today, all of those years have been really in support of professionals, hearing healthcare professionals who have worked in a variety of settings, medical, private practice, university, not-for-profit.
Paul Harkness:
But ll these people that really went to school and then practiced to make a difference for consumers and people with hearing loss, that’s always grabbed me. These people are givers, Dave. They’re all about other people. That’s always attracted me and I’m sure that’s kept me in this space.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah, that’s really cool. I think, for those that are listening, that you’ve met along the way, I’m sure they’re saying, “Yeah, I remember meeting Paul back when he was either with GN.” Or maybe it was when you were with, oh, I’m sorry with 3M, or when you were with ReSound. What were you doing when you were at ReSound, and then how long did you stay there and where did that then lead you next?
Paul Harkness:
Yes, when ReSound purchased the group, I still was inside sales. Shortly thereafter, I had a brief time at Bernafon-Maico. That was the group that gave me my first chance to take an outside sales role. Was very grateful for that. Was about move from the Midwest where I’ve always lived to the Carolinas to cover the east coast when I was approached by Sonic Innovations when they started as a brand new hearing aid company in 1998.
Paul Harkness:
They, of course, wanted me to stay in the Midwest. So happy to have had that chapter, that journey, a startup company, and a company that literally was starting from zero. Phenomenal family that was created there, both through leadership and the team. Again, relationships that I still cherish and spent four years there carving out creating brand new customer relationships that had never existed before.
Paul Harkness:
I think what was telling for me as a young person in this space, all of my career had been on the east coast supporting practices and professionals out there. I remember wondering, could I do the same thing in a different territory? To stay in the Midwest, even though it was my home, I just wasn’t sure, but it just goes to show you the same kinds of people who went to school to help people hear better. Those same relationship people are all over the country as you know by now. So, I was very blessed to have gone through that experience in the Midwest with Sonic. I did that for four years.
Dave Kemp:
I feel like this industry with the way in which a lot of the manufacturers are designed, their sales teams are very much geographically driven. You have your outside sales team for X manufacturer, and so you have two reps all the way down to the state level where it’s for a region or something like that. I mean, it’s, as you just said there, it sounds like there was some consistency of the types of people and the practices that you’re working with and stuff like that. But what were some of the, I don’t know, what were some of the differences in your mind of working in different parts of the country as a rep?
Dave Kemp:
I mean, what stands out to you during that phase of time where you’re kind of bouncing around and working in different areas? It’s just interesting to me, because I think that, while things have continually moved more virtual and we have Zoom calls like this today, the fact remains that it is still very much a geographic driven business, not just in this industry, but a lot of different sales jobs that you have. Personally, I’m just intrigued by this idea of, what’s it like when you’re a sales rep like that working in a variety of different places in the country, I guess?
Paul Harkness:
It was a great experience. To your point, though, depending on the marketplace you’re in, you will find different groups that are more or less interested in something new, I think at the core though. There were certainly certain bigger cities when you come in and they’ve never worked to you before in your brand new product. They’re not always as interested to try something new, but I think that’s a pretty common theme over time. Most of us that have been on the manufacturing side or even the service side have worked hard to help influence people to try something new. I think that, at the end of the day though, most people are just looking to be helped so that they can help their patients.
Paul Harkness:
If you could truly show them how your product, how your service is going to make it easier to run their business, but most importantly, make a difference for their patients, they’ll generally give you a listening ear. Of course, as you are in this space longer and you build those connections. This is an industry full of that. They want to know if they can trust you because people that they know trust you. That has ultimately served me well, but you, as you know, Dave, we have to put our time in over the years to build up that network.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. Well, and also it’s, as a small industry, your reputation really is the thing that that precedes you and that you have to have a good standing. I think that you can either tarnish your reputation really easily or you can have a good reputation that will take you a lot of different places. That seems to be what you have in spades, is that you’ve sort of gone into lots of different roles. You’ve been in this industry for a long time. Because of that, it’s allowed for you to build a lot of long lasting and meaningful relationships that you’ve been able to leverage in each and every role in all the different companies that you’ve been in.
Dave Kemp:
Let’s continue on. So you were at Bernafon, or I’m sorry, in Sonic for four years, and then what then did you do, and what was roughly the timeline here? What year was this?
Paul Harkness:
Sure, sure. Interestingly enough, after four years at Sonic, and had a great ride there, I was recruited back to ReSound. Now, now they were NM ReSound, of course. Now it was the time for me to take over the same territory, but take over for ReSound who had a much bigger market share and a much bigger name in my local space here. This was 2002 to 2004. Again, timing is everything, but that happened to be the time when they were expanding their sales force and they had just come out with the ReSound Air product.
Paul Harkness:
Which, as everyone knows, even when the competitors, they didn’t want to admit it, it was really a first of its kind technology. So, had of phenomenal busy experience over those two years there and met some great people and ReSound had some really great growth, ’02 to ’04 as they grew the group.
Dave Kemp:
I just had a few episodes ago. I had Laurel Christensen on who’s the chief audiology officer there. We had a fantastic discussion and we talked about the ReSound Air. That really was a game changing technology. I feel like that time, and it’ll be interesting to kind of get your thoughts on this. That 2000 to 2004, in the same way that 2014 was a really big year when ReSound, once again, changed the game with the ReSound LiNX in the first made for iPhone hearing aid, you kind of look back on that, and like, that is a pretty monumental moment in the history of the devices 2002 and 2004 are similar in that regard where with the RIC Hearing aids started to become introduced. Then you had just the advent of digital devices as well.
Dave Kemp:
I think that’s just a very interesting timeframe because you were in the space for the ’90s where, when I was talking with Laurel, it’s like the big game change in the early ’90s according to Mead Killion and Etymotic, was a lot of like the K-Amp. It’s fascinating to learn about the various breakthroughs in the technology. I’m curious to get your thoughts of having lived through some of that and been in the industry and working in different facets of the industry, what really stands out in your mind with that regard?
Dave Kemp:
Because it just triggered, in my mind, when we were talking about ReSound and Laurel, I loved that conversation so I’m curious to build on it with you a little bit here is to just hear about, what stands out to you and what was that like being in the industry at that time? Did it feel momentous in like, man, this is a really, really big deal.
Paul Harkness:
Yes. I feel, when I look back, mostly fortunate. If I start back at 3M, those that don’t recall 3M as much, they built an unbelievable audiology team, professional services, people that are well known out there. They created a product way back in the ’90s that had eight memories. Now, we can debate whether eight memories were needed, but the point being, way ahead of its time. I think, as importantly, they introduced data logging, which today is a no brainer, but in the early ’90s or mid ’90s was not something everyone had to get a better read on how are people, are they, or how are they actually using and wearing the device?
Paul Harkness:
Having been there, there’s some belief that the ReSound Air, by the way, came from some genesis tied to 3M at ReSound later. It just happened to have been at the right place at the right time several times. I remember early in my career too, even as an outside, inside rep selling both analog and digital technology. That seems preposterous now, but that was a real thing. Options, and then I remember the shift to Sonic. Sonic was a startup manufacturer and they only, which sounds crazy now, in 1998, they only manufactured digital hearing aids. That was a big deal in 1998, which is hard to believe looking back now.
Paul Harkness:
I’ve just been fortunate to be with several companies who have brought new technologies to bear or new algorithms and fitting philosophies to bear. It’s been fantastic to be able to represent a lot of those companies and bring that technology to practices as well as patients everywhere. Of course, I was around when Widex and Oticon had their digital products, and watching all the rest of the companies scramble. I was at Sonic when Starkey started to finally move into digital and eventually had their own digital product in destiny, in 2006, I believe that was.
Paul Harkness:
I had moved from ReSound in ’04 to Starkey when Destiny came out. Again, that was a phenomenal time at Starkey, really jumped them forward and created a new roadmap for them in the digital space as well and I had a phenomenal five years there too. The move to Starkey from ReSound was a big one for me because that was when I first moved in ’04 into a leadership position, a leadership of people position.
Dave Kemp:
Awesome. Was it like a sales lead kind of role? Were you managing a team of sales people? Is that what it was?
Paul Harkness:
So, it was a regional director position, so in a sense, yes. I remember having the conversation with Brandon who I have great respect for still, who hired me back in ’04. I had always carried my own bag, had my own territory, worked with an inside rep, felt like I had a little bit of control of my own destiny. To think about taking a leadership position in 2004, I always felt like that’s something that people older than me did. Wasn’t sure that I wanted to do that and I’m grateful, really grateful because that opened up a whole new world for me. I absolutely believe in my heart that I am a team builder, that I am someone who is constantly trying to identify the right people, the right culture fits and help develop them. That opening of my eyes started in 2004 when I joined Starkey to lead the Midwest region.
Dave Kemp:
That’s awesome. Okay. You were at Starkey then, you said for five years, and that’s when you then started to take on the leadership role. You headed up a regional sales team. With that time, what really stands out to you other than that was the first time when you started to get to manage people? It sounds like you found your true calling there. But in the Starkey days, what comes to mind there from that period of time? That’s another interesting period, like you said. I kind of feel like, in today’s times in 2021, we’re almost spoiled because all of the technology is so good today that we sort of forget that, and I mean, I wasn’t really exposed to this industry so I’m just speaking just based on what I’ve heard.
Dave Kemp:
But it’s like, some of these advancements, whether it was like the first digital hearing aid for X manufacturer, it was the first time that some of these providers were exposed to a real step change in the technology. I find that to just be so fascinating where you get into this work with altruistic intentions, you want to help as many people. I have to just imagine what a profound feeling that must have been when you are dispensing one level of technology, and then suddenly, over the course of a couple years, the technology dramatically improves.
Dave Kemp:
I feel like that gives you more meaning. It’s like, man, I can just provide even more of a tangible benefit. So, you then go one step, or move to that, to those that are selling into and making the providers aware of the new technology that exists. I mean, it just seems to me that we’re … It’s so far removed now, because again, the technology is so good. There’s now new challenges and there’s new aspirations, but the table stakes are so high today that most of what you can buy from a provider is light years ahead of what we had in the early 2000s. I feel like that’s got to have been pretty cool.
Paul Harkness:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course, it seems to be going at a different pace and speed that it did way back then, too. But to answer your question, the time at Starkey was game changing for me. They took a chance on me that I could lead people that want to do it and could be successful at it. It has sparked the rest of my career. I just believe all businesses. Doesn’t matter if you’re a manufacturer, you run your own practice, you work at an ENT. The ultimate success at whether it’s even our space or not, is around the people that make it up.
Paul Harkness:
I’m certainly a poster child in belief of that. Starkey gave me that first chance. It allowed me to take a region in the Midwest, helped kind of recraft it, of course, in the middle of that time, as I said, a digital product of their own came out. Was a huge deal. 2016 was a year I’ll never forget, or 2006, I’m sorry, it was a year I’ll never forget. Of course, AAA happened to be in Minneapolis so that worked out perfect that year as well for Starkey.
Paul Harkness:
But I think that, for the first time, it became, I shouldn’t say for the first time, but it became clear to me, as well as part of the Starkey group and the Starkey family at that time, what Starkey did so well and is still better than anyone at, is hosting people live. Whether it was the regional groups up in Minneapolis, whether it’s the Vegas events, whether it’s their expo now, they’re just so good about hosting customer events and helping people get to know their products. Have enormous respect for them in that time. Really enjoyed my five years there.
Dave Kemp:
Well, I was going to say, and there might be a stint in between where I feel like I really saw this full display, which is where I met you, when you were at Elite. I don’t know, did you then move from Starkey directly to Elite or was there … What happened, I guess after you left Starkey?
Paul Harkness:
Yeah. It’s exactly what happened. Ironically enough, when I left Starkey to go to Elite, I can say it now, they weren’t particularly pleased with me. When I made that move at the time, Starkey was not a supplier to Elite. But over time, a couple of years later, a year and a half later, we became partners again. Today, I still very much value the connections and the relationship there. I took the position to run Elite Hearing Network in 2009. That just was an exponential shift in terms of size and scope and reach.
Paul Harkness:
I went from a region or helping some national account groups to helping lead a team to cover the country with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Elite members. Private practices, ENTs, not-for-profits all around the country that wanted to be part of a membership group to gain some advantages for doing that. That was my longest stint. I was there eight and a half years, and really, really proud of what we accomplished over that time.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. Elite was really cool. I say was because it has since … Amplifon has disbanded it, it’s no more relatively recent, happened this year. But when I came into the industry, I met you, which was back in, either 2016 or 2017, Elite was pretty famous for having these amazing, and the reason I kind of segued your time at Starkey was like you say, that one of the things they did really well were these in-person events. Well, clearly that rubbed off on you and the mindset that must have been permeating within elite.
Dave Kemp:
Because I can think of no better place that had some of the best in-person events, some of the coolest locations. But the thing about that, and again, I think that the pandemic has actually made this even more realized in my mind, which is that yes, it’s awesome that we live in a time where you can have Zoom calls. It’s not necessary anymore probably to be on the road every week. But I do still think that in-person events, particularly like networking events, where you have the opportunity to see people in person and build those relationships face-to-face is more valuable than ever.
Dave Kemp:
I feel like, in a way, you were ahead of your time with that whole thing, because it was … There was a lot of value that extended beyond that, but I know that at a lot of the value really was in those annual summits, and being able to actually form partnerships and have like really concrete conversations in a place where everybody was really excited and happy to be, the energy was just really high.
Paul Harkness:
Yes. Again, sounds like a broken record. I’ve been so blessed, Dave. I mean, each of these steps on my journey have been phenomenal. The Elite journey, even more special because of the scope and scale and the number of people we impacted. But to your point, 2009 to 2017, I believe, was a stretch of time where we were perfect at filling a need that practitioners had out there. Most practice owners out there who had their dream of having their own shingle in their market, which is fantastic, most of those people have an office or two.
Paul Harkness:
There are certainly groups out there that have many more than that. But most practices out there are very local. Elite served that group very, very well, gave them a place to cut to join and I’m part of, where it didn’t matter how big or small they were. It also helped that we had, over time, we built it out where we were one of the first of our kind to have every single hearing aid manufacturer that you could purchase through us.
Paul Harkness:
That seems like a foreground conclusion now. I think we added Widex, and then Starkey, and then Oticon in 2015, ’14. That was the first or second of its kind, so it allowed people to come together, feel like they could learn and gain from each other in a non conflicting or in a noncompetitive way. Then, of course, as you say, we took the annual event, which, when I joined in 2009, was about 150 people large to at our height for two or three or four years, we had a thousand people in our big events every year.
Paul Harkness:
Again, we offered phenomenal education, but it was really about people coming together and learning from each other and people still rave about those events. I’m really proud of that. The other thing I would just mention though, during that time, which again, was not typical, you could say maybe it’s not typical even today, I worked really hard with the team and with Amplifon to make sure that we had really constructive, collaborative relationships with the hearing aid manufacturers.
Paul Harkness:
It really mattered to us that we tried to be partners. We know that, that isn’t always the case with groups of that type anymore. I think that the landscape has changed, it’s become a little bit more difficult, but those were magical years from 2009 to 2017 while I was there. While it’s disappointing, the decision that was made, I think it doesn’t do anything but validate how we built it very purposefully with the right people, with the right culture. I think culture that we built within the team at Elite, extended to the membership, which is a really proud achievement for us.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. I really kind of glommed onto the portion that you just described about the people being able to talk amongst themselves and share ideas. Again, it’s another one of these things that I do fear a little bit about the sort of the byproduct that the pandemic is … I mean, again, you have virtual forums and stuff like that, but nothing really beats being in person and being able to just casually talk through some of the challenges that you might be encountering.
Dave Kemp:
Solving these things collectively and just borrowing ideas from one another is incredible for anybody that owns a business or is in a position where they’re confronting a very specific set of issues that only another private practitioner would really empathize with and understand. That’s so powerful. I do think that there is a little bit of a void right now. It’ll be interesting to see how that is filled, but I always thought that, that, and I think it’s, again, become more apparent as time’s gone on, is like, you need some type of forum where it brings people together.
Dave Kemp:
Because I’m just not sure how conducive the online forum really is to that. Then, the other, I guess, alternative would be these smaller meetups, which are … Those are important too, but I think that there’s probably, just like you said, there’s a ton of people out there that they own one, maybe two locations. I wonder often, like how many of those people are just completely absent from a lot of this discussion today. That seemed to be kind of the sweet spot that you filled, was you were big enough to where you really could cater to a lot of the mom and pop shops were out there.
Paul Harkness:
Absolutely. We gave them purchasing power that they wouldn’t get at the time. That’s shifted some. But at the time in 2009, it allowed smaller groups to get great pricing regardless of how many units from a particular manufacturer that they purchased. We gave them access to other services. We gave them an incredible savings plan where they could help build for retirement. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, we allowed them to have a place to come and be a part of something regardless of their size. I think the other reason that Elite really worked, Dave, is that it truly was not tied in ownership to any hearing and manufacturer.
Paul Harkness:
That was a big calling card for us that we really started at the practice. We certainly had partnerships with the manufacturers, we supported them and their efforts, but at the end of the day, we would support them at the non-denominational level, if you will. It was a great time. I do think there are groups out there trying to create that same kind of forum, even whether they’re a buying group or not, trying to give people the chance to come together and gain from each other, trying to create smaller groups that are growing where their voice can be bigger than just themselves.
Paul Harkness:
I think that’s awesome. I don’t think the desire has changed within practitioners. So, it’ll just have to shift in terms of who is out there to help support them. Because of that, some groups have been created from within. I have no doubt that they’ll be successful.
Dave Kemp:
This then brings us to Lantos. I want to get into this. I really appreciate you giving the backstory. As I continue to do more and more of these discussions, the backstory informs so much of, I think, the way I see the industry based on those that came before me, the way in which they helped to shape the market. I think it’s really awesome to hear this, but I do want to give you a chance now to really speak to Lantos. Because I think this is a really interesting product and a concept.
Dave Kemp:
You had said kind of earlier in the conversation, you want, as a private practice, you want to really stand out in your market. I’ve talked about this a lot on the podcast lately, but the thing that gets me most excited is that there are a myriad of new things that are starting to emerge that cater to this desire. There’s lots of different avenues that you can go. A lot of it boils down to, are you will lean to take it upon yourself to do it. But I think Lantos is another really interesting one that it gives you an opportunity to impress the customer.
Dave Kemp:
Then there’s a lot of really exciting secondary benefits that come with it. So, why don’t you just share like your pitch of what Lantos is and then we can kind of start to get into the details of the company.
Paul Harkness:
Perfect. Thanks, Dave. To your point, as we wrap up the backdrop, I think, to set up the Lantos story, I had to come to grips at some point with the fact that a kid from St Paul, who I didn’t think was a risk taker, really has been exactly that. Whether it was, even jumping to Bernafon as a small manufacturer at the time, and I’m going to move across the country, which didn’t end up happening, jumping to Sonic as a startup, taking over a region that was underperforming at Starkey, but certainly jumping into Elite, which, for most people, over many years, became a really big giant and a really impressive organization.
Paul Harkness:
But when I joined it, was anything but. It still had a startup-ish feel. That leads to, why would I be involved with Lantos? Of course, I had a little bit of time with the Oticon [inaudible 00:35:19] crew as well in between. I bring them up again because they’re just desperately trying to help the private practitioners out there who set themselves apart. They have phenomenal training programs, phenomenal content, and really appreciate what the founders of that company continue to do as well.
Paul Harkness:
But I think it leads to the same point here. All of those summits that we had at Elite, all of the work that the manufacturers do beyond product, we’ve been speaking for a decade, Dave, or more, around how do we help practices differentiate themselves. Sometimes that’s through a hearing aid, a revolution, as you mentioned. I’ve lived through many of them, thank goodness already, and it’s really made a huge difference.
Paul Harkness:
Sometimes it’s conceptual. Sometimes it’s an idea. But I think what has been the case for a lot of practices, I think they’d admit it, is that implementation is the tough part. They might like an idea, but it gets really tough. The easier things to implement are more tangible is what I say. The reality is we manufacture a 3D ear scanner that utilizes a proprietary balloon membrane. When we talk about making practices, giving them an actual weapon to set themselves apart, we think it’s something that they can literally hold in their hands and the patient can experience like they haven’t experienced before through the other processes that they’ve been through.
Paul Harkness:
But I loved the other groups, as you say, it’s a phenomenal time in our space around differentiation. When you think about groups like Cognivue or you think about HearVu, there’s many others, most of us are working hard to try to set the practitioner. Like many of those, we at Lantos have chosen the professional channel. We want to give the professionals a further reason for patients to feel like they are the right person to go see for anything related to their hearing, and in our case, to their listening.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. Can you describe the process? It’s a 3D ear scanner, proprietary balloon membrane. How long does it take? I know that there’s a bit of a learning curve for providers, which again, though, I think speaks to how this can be a weapon, because if you take it upon yourself to adopt these kinds of new weapons that are at your disposal, the other avenues of access to whatever you’re selling, they might not be as equipped or have the interest to have that, like to do that learning curve. Walk us through a little bit about like what this actually looks like from a practical implementation standpoint.
Paul Harkness:
Sure. To scan a patient, once you’re proficient, literally takes 60 to 90 seconds per ear. So, it’s quite quick. More important than that, is the patient can go through the process with you. They can witness it on a big screen and it’s very comfortable. The balloon membrane that’s proprietary to us, or the only one that does it, really forms as a proxy to what an EMI, a traditional EMI would be without the discomfort, without the worry from the practitioner of it going too deep. It’s very safe. It’s very comfortable. But as you said, it takes some time to become proficient. So, we have a big focus on our training and development group.
Paul Harkness:
It’s a pretty significant commitment to jump in. We want definitely people who are trailblazers that are early adopters that want to make a difference that want to stand out, and those people can pick this up, but it takes a couple of three hour sessions per scan user, followed by some activity where they actually do scanning.
Paul Harkness:
If they do a certain number of scans in a given amount of time, it’ll be like riding a bike. They’ll get really good at it and they’ll stay good at it. But we just believe that a patient going through this experience at your office, Dave, for instance, is going to feel differently, more positively about working at your place and working with your team. You already give them reasons and practices, already give them reasons, but as we try to set ourselves apart versus less professional groups or less customized groups, where they can get hearing healthcare or places where they can go take care of it themselves, which none of us who’ve been doing this a long time believe is the right answer, this gives patients a real reason to feel like I want to give that great Google review.
Paul Harkness:
I’m definitely going to give you a stronger NPS score. We’ve done studies along these lines. It really does help us fix the disconnect going on that I believe is true in our industry. Whereas, 80% of patients walk into the practice expecting something custom, and you and I know, %15 or 20% leave with it. I’m not saying a custom hearing aid. I’m just saying something custom, right?
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Paul Harkness:
how do we fix that disconnect? Well, I think our technology solves that completely.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. I think that’s interesting about that desire to have … I think it’s like, it even transcends that to … I think people want like experiential things. Even in a healthcare setting like that, the difference between something that might be the status quo and something that really goes above and beyond and gives you that feeling of this is pretty neat or that I’m getting some premium, I think goes a really long way, especially again, when we’re thinking about this through the lens of like, how do you differentiate in a market that continues to become more and more crowded?
Dave Kemp:
There’s been a lot of different suggestions on this podcast, and this is a very different one that I think is really interesting, which is the basis of the experience more or less. So, you take the scan, and if you’re proficient, like you said, it should only take a matter of a few minutes. What then happens? I mean, are you … Yeah, walk us through that portion.
Paul Harkness:
Sure. That’s the beauty for, not just the practitioner and the patient, but also for the hearing aid manufacturer. A customer of ours will scan a patient. They then upload the scan immediately to the Lantos cloud. In the cloud, all Lantos-ready manufacturers are available for an electronic order to be sent off. It’s incredible. We’ve worked very hard over the last year to make sure that all the manufacturers are on board with us and are accepting scans, are building with them, are having success with them.
Paul Harkness:
Because we know practices everywhere want to work with all the manufacturers and we didn’t want to have, to have practices choose to work with us because of the kinds of manufacturers that they work with, so very, very simple. We look at Lantos as having three groups of customers. We’ve got the customer who actually does the scanning for the patient. Of course, we believe the consumers by extension, but we also really need to serve properly hearing aid manufacturers and the mold makers so that they have the ability to be successful in building with our scans.
Paul Harkness:
But if you imagine, if the digital workflow is true and those orders show up faster, they don’t have to go through the mail, people don’t have to open said mail, and the process of modeling and building can happen quickly. Again, we’ve also believe that accuracy will be improved. First time fits and remake rates should be reduced. If all those things are true, there’s enormous cost savings and time savings from the hearing aid manufacturers as well.
Paul Harkness:
But at the end of the day, the people that we’re focused on are professionals, Dave. They are doing what they do because they are in service to patients. At the end of the day, we believe our technology can absolutely accentuate the patient experience like few other things can, and that’s what excites me.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. That’s really cool. For those, that would say, “Well, I used to do a lot of impressions back before I started to sell almost entirely RIC Hearing aids,” what would you say to that? Where do you see the opportunity here for Lantos, for practices that might be skewed heavily toward receiver in the canal type hearing aids?
Paul Harkness:
Yeah. I’m thrilled about receiver in the canal hearing aids. To be clear, I think it’s important to dispel the myth that scanning, 3D scanning from us or our competitor is all about custom hearing aids. Now, the hearing aid manufacturers would prefer to sell and manufacture mostly custom devices. It’s likely not a genie that can be put back in the bottle very well. Certainly, you can use our scans to build those devices.
Paul Harkness:
However, if we want people to get good at scanning, they have to do it every day. What they sell every day are receiver in the canal devices. It’s my belief that we should be standard of care, 3D scanning should be standard of care, which means that, why is it that most of these RIC devices are being provided to patients with a non custom delivery mechanism? I would just say this, it surprises me, we’ve been doing this a long time, Dave, but having worked on the hearing and manufacturer side, I know the money that is spent, there are tens of millions of dollars that is spent to customize an algorithm to perfectly match someone’s individual hearing loss.
Paul Harkness:
I fully respect it. We talked about some of those leaps forward in technology. And yet, after all of that, we deliver the sound that’s customized for their loss with a non-custom device or the earpiece. It doesn’t make sense. It actually has all kinds of audiological benefits to have it customized, as you might imagine. But as we talk to people around the country, manufacturers and customers alike, everyone really believes that this is what we should be doing, that this can separate us versus other places that people can get their hearing aids with the same three size fits a few domes.
Paul Harkness:
Not a non-custom dome. We believe this is absolutely the right thing and people agree with us. I think the new Lantos needed to come out with a business model that would help make it easier to jump on board.
Dave Kemp:
Do you want to talk about that a little bit, the new Lantos?
Paul Harkness:
Absolutely. Lantos was born in 2010 via some technology invented at MIT. Ironically enough, also applied to the dental space. They got their little quicker than we did, but regardless, a lot of time and energy and money was invested to help create what is now our scanner. Very grateful for all the work that was done. It did take them nine years before they had a scanner that could be sellable.
Dave Kemp:
Wow.
Paul Harkness:
So, didn’t come to market officially until 2019. Then in 2020, middle of that year, in the middle of the pandemic, the largest investors walked away from the company. Didn’t want to put anymore in and the company went to an asset sale. As tough a story as that is, it allowed us to become the new Lantos. One of the smaller initial investors decided to purchase the assets for a great price and asked me to lead a very industry experience team to bring it back to market in a way that practices could actually jump on board and adopt.
Paul Harkness:
That’s been our experience since coming back to the space in late February. We found with our new business model that people believed it was the right thing and are signing up to get involved, and we’ve been overwhelmed with the response.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah, I was going to say like, so I know that you’ve been really successful here, kind of from the jump of coming on board in helping to implement this new business model, which is more along the lines of like the razor and the blade, selling the membranes, and basically loaning out the scanners. Correct me if I’m wrong with that, but that’s how I interpret it.
Dave Kemp:
But what’s exciting, and I would be really curious is to hear this is, as you’ve got more of these in the market, what’s the feedback that you’ve gotten, whether it’s, that was expected, and have there been unexpected feedback that’s like, wow, that’s really interesting, we hadn’t even thought about that?
Paul Harkness:
It’s learning every day, Dave, right? To your point, to make the business model clear, we decided to go away from selling scanners. In fact, we don’t sell scanners at all anymore. That was the original plan of the original company. We actually place our scanners with practices that want to work with us, and in exchange for doing that at no charge, they agreed to buy our one membrane per patient membranes. We ship those to them on a monthly basis.
Paul Harkness:
That’s our business model, very simple, very, pun intended, I guess, customized practice to practice on what that looks like. But the only way it really will work between us and the customer is if they’re going to use it regularly. What have we learned? We’ve learned a ton of things. Lots and lots of interest. But just like in every other stop along my journey, Dave, you’re trying to help influence change.
Paul Harkness:
Certainly we’re doing that here too. The great news is we’re trying to influence people that want to be a part of the change, but the big shift is around helping people take what they believe is the next step and helping them adapt it to their workflow. We’re very habit-driven people. We have a way of doing things. So, trying to bring something new, even though we believe it’s going to make a big difference, takes some work.
Paul Harkness:
I also think it comes down to proficiency and confidence. The groups that do enough scans to get good at it will then look at the scanner in its dedicated place in their office as a weapon to set themselves apart. If they don’t do enough scans to get really good at it, they get they’re a little bit more hesitant, but this is no surprise. We’re putting a lot of effort around practice implementation, helping them understand how to make it work well in their office, help them get full buy-in from their full team, and then help tell their marketplace about this weapon.
Paul Harkness:
A lot of those are the key learnings that we’re going through. The other thing which we really bet on was that this business, if we were going to be successful, required people with industry experience in all customer facing positions. Some of those people that helped me build the Elite Hearing Network in its heyday have joined me here. Some other people as well, we’ve got some key audiologists on board helping us with training and product management.
Paul Harkness:
What that’s brought with us is all the relationships that we’ve had with people that are helping become bought in as really adopters and helping influence the rest of the market. It’s been really exciting. I truly believe, if you talk to most practices and you ask them what their biggest concern is, it’s about new patients. How do we get more new patients? Underneath that is really the fact that, as you’ve seen in the journals, the fact that, in many cases, half of the patients we have make a different decision to go somewhere else the next time.
Paul Harkness:
If we cut it down to that brass tacks, if we can provide a tangible tool that allows and helps people to retain their patients better because of the experience that they give through 3D scanning, we think that’s really, really valuable, as you might imagine. You and I have talked before about my vision for where this could really go. If I can jump there, I would just say the big picture for me isn’t just scan every patient, which I think is important.
Paul Harkness:
But once you scan a patient and you have their digital geometry, they’re very less likely to go somewhere else that didn’t provide that scan and don’t have that on file. They’re very much, in my opinion, more likely to come back your way. But if we’re honest and we think of ourselves as ear centers of influence in our marketplaces, my belief with our technology is that anything to people put in their ears can be customized with one scan.
Paul Harkness:
And oh, by the way, your patient that puts more things in their ears than just a hearing aid has a broad group of family and friends that may not have a hearing loss, but also put lots of customized things in their ears. The big picture thinker or practice owners out there, this is where I think that this can go for them and they can really weaponize the technology to set them apart from big box online, non-custom delivery mechanisms that are very prevalent.
Dave Kemp:
I mean, I think that what’s so exciting about that thought is, I like what you said, where you’re like the ear center. Again, this has been sort of a theme, which is, whether you want to double down on the audiology space and you want to specialize and you want to elevate your area of expertise, or if you want to cast a wider net, which would tie into things like the OTC hearing aids, and then kind of what you’re describing here, where it’s like looking at it as your total addressable market is the fact that every single person, for the most part, has two ears.
Dave Kemp:
You can think of everybody as a potential customer. I think, to your point, as you look at the next five years of this space, I think it’s inevitable that we’re going to just continue to wear things like AirPods in our ears and we’re all going to be wired into our digital landscapes for longer periods of time. So, I think it does sort of present in our opportunity of like, you can get people into your … As the ear center of your community, have them in there, get their ear scanned, have a conversation with them.
Dave Kemp:
Doesn’t have to even pertain to hearing loss at all, but it can be more around this idea of customization. It can be something where it’s, I’m tailor something to you. In a world full of commodity experiences, those are going to be the things that I would imagine will set you apart, is this feels special to me. I feel like, whether it’s creating molds that you put onto AirPods, or looking at, how often do you have Zoom calls throughout the day? Just think about how much further out from here this will just progress. It seems like there’s some serious viability to what you’re describing.
Paul Harkness:
Not to mention all of the, of course, audiometric advantages to it fitting properly. The sound being sent the correct way and needing less of volume and not dealing with feedback.
Dave Kemp:
That’s a great point.
Paul Harkness:
All kinds of those actual benefits, right? But at the end of the day, it’s about helping these practices set themselves apart. To come full circle on the backdrop of my journey, and I’m grateful for you letting me share it, Dave. As I mentioned, I’ve spent my entire career supporting practice owners out there and practice professionals wherever they may be found. Five years out For Lantos, who knows, you can imagine there are a lot of other app applications for what we do, I’m sure, in the bigger consumer space out there, but the reality was, and it’s what I told our investors when we became the new company, was we really needed to place our foundation deeply in the hearing space with the hearing professionals that I’ve trusted for a very long time and who’ve trusted me.
Paul Harkness:
I’m really proud to see the reaction we’ve received around our new business model. Now it’s just really a matter of helping people find the right recipe to help them make it a really firm part of their business. Look forward to continuing to make that happen. There’s no doubt that it will. I think, again, re-imagining it away from only being for custom hearing aids and being hyper focused on custom RIC molds which, by the way the VA does, who buys more hearing aids than anyone, any group on the planet.
Paul Harkness:
By contract, they provide custom RIC tips, so why don’t the rest of us do the same is my argument. And we, we think we’re providing the means to help people deliver that in a very custom way.
Dave Kemp:
Really, really cool story, Paul. I appreciate you coming on. It was great to have you sort of take us from the start. I just find it to be really neat how you obviously kept pushing yourself throughout your career, and it’s really cool that you’ve stayed in this industry and you’ve had a lot of meaningful contributions along the way. You’re extremely well known and respected within the industry. To have you on and share all that and paint the vision of where you see, from your perspective, of how this thing’s going to evolve over the next few years.
Dave Kemp:
Again, I love this idea of, as an industry, let’s empower the audiologist, the hearing professionals in any way that we can because, as industry people, like our businesses, are very much dependent on the professionals. I think championing them in as many ways as possible, it bodes well for all of us.
Paul Harkness:
Dave, your kind words are appreciated. I would tell you, I’ve been very fortunate, I’ve mentioned that many times, but what’s really nice for me now in this space is, it accentuates the patient experience. It gives a phenomenal tool and weapon to practitioners, but the other great part is, all of the groups I’ve worked with, whether it’s buying groups, or hearing aid manufacturers, or practice owners, it works fantastic for me to work in concert and collaborate with all of them to make this happen.
Paul Harkness:
I think that’s phenomenal for me. It’s not about having to pick sides. I think all of us want the same thing. We’re all trying to make sure that we arm the practices and oh, by the way, provide some additional benefits to the hearing aid manufacturers along the way. I’m just excited that we have such committed investors and a committed team, that we can gain from what was built before us to finally bring it to the market in a way that can truly become the next best practice standard of care. Really appreciate the time and look forward to listening to your continuing episodes, which you’re doing, Dave.
Dave Kemp:
Awesome. Thank you, Paul. Thanks for everybody who tuned in here to the end and we will chat with you next time. Cheers.
Dave Kemp:
Thanks for tuning in today. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future Ear Radio. For more content like this, just head over to futurear.co, where you can read all the articles that I’ve been writing these past few years on the worlds of voice technology and hearables and how the two are beginning to intersect. Thanks for tuning in, and I’ll chat with you next time.
