Hello and welcome back for another episode of the Future Ear Radio podcast!
This week, I’m joined by Patrick Lawler, Director of Sales at Cognivue, who came on the show to share his own personal story about the need for better cognitive screenings in healthcare.
-Thanks for Listening-
Dave
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dave Kemp 00:08
All right, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Future Ear Radio Podcast. I am very excited to be joined today by Patrick Lawler, So Patrick, thanks for coming on. How you doing today?
Patrick Lawler 00:17
Good Dave, thanks for having me. It’s been a been a while since I’ve seen you
Dave Kemp 00:23
Since our paths have crossed, yeah, yeah, it’s it was one of those conferences in the distant past. I guess I don’t know, time is all such a blur these days, but I guess that’s parenthood
Patrick Lawler 00:36
Yeah,I can say I have genuinely met such good people in at at audiology conferences, which I was it’s a new that’s a new industry for me, and I wasn’t expecting it. But, like, I’ve met such good people. You know it when you’re working a lot of times you go to those things and it’s like, gotta socialize and network. They have been so fun. I mean, there’s people that I actually consider friends, that I’ve connected with and and you being one of them. So thanks for having me Awesome. Well, I
Dave Kemp 01:09
appreciate the the friendship. Yeah, it’s been, it’s been really nice to get to know you. So let’s talk a little bit about who you are, you know, and your your background. So, you know, let’s, let’s just kind of go from the start about how you entered into this industry. Obviously, it’s a long, a longer story, so start wherever you feel is most appropriate,
Patrick Lawler 01:31
yeah. So, so I got into this industry, I know by accident, I guess. And so I was, I’ve always been in sales. Whole career in sales, and was in med device sales, selling into the hospital space or ICU kind of trauma sales. And really didn’t have intentions on leaving that. That was really as I was working my way through my career, that was my goal, was to get in that space, and was very happy, was with a great company, Teleflex, and everything was good, but my, my mother started showing signs of decline, and I started, you know, taking her through those, those appointments, and that’s what ultimately brought me to cognivue. So when I started with cognivue, and they told me that one of our main, main channels really was audiology, I was very confused. And I’ve actually my wife’s cousin is an audiologist locally in Syracuse, so I asked her before I even accepted, I’m like, Does this make sense? Because I was, I was, I honestly was like, Man, am I going to be trying to, like, sell something completely, you know, random and crazy to audiologists. I didn’t know anything about the space, and she said, Oh, no, there’s a lot of research. This is very timely and makes perfect sense. So coming from her, you know, somebody I trust, I trust, the process jumped over. So that’s how I got into the audiology field. But, you know, like you said, much longer story on exactly how I came to cognivue. But,
Dave Kemp 03:11
yeah, okay, cool. Well, thank you for for sharing that. Yeah. I mean, I when I first met you, it was obviously when you were with cognivue and just kind of getting to know you a little bit better about, you know, kind of like your the backstory and the fundamental reason why you joined the company, I found to be very, not just interesting, but very relevant, you know. So anyway, I don’t want to kind of put the cart before the horse. Why don’t you tell the story of, you know, obviously we know that you now work in sales at cognivue. But how did you even become aware of cognivue, and how did this all kind of come to come to be Yeah,
Patrick Lawler 03:48
so it’s, it’s a really pretty cool story. How much, how many stars align, really. So my mother, at age 64 was showing signs of decline, and we really didn’t know what, what, what was going on, I mean, and that’s that’s why screening is so necessary, because I saw her every single day, and we didn’t know what was going on. So I have clinicians, you know, doctors to this day that will tell me, I don’t need your product. I can tell. And I’m like, No, you can tell when somebody is fully, fully, you know, declined and has dementia. Yes, probably you can’t tell when somebody’s declining mild stages. Because my own mother, I we had no idea. So anyway, she was showing signs of decline, and we really didn’t know what was going on. It was, you know, something’s off with mom, 64 years old. She’s worked the same job for 1520, years, and suddenly was starting to forget things at work and was getting in trouble. She would cut, you know, come home and share with. Me that, you know, she, she got yelled at her, you know, reprimanded for, for getting something at her job. And she was just really considered, you know, confused, on, on what was going on. And we me and my siblings, we just felt okay. Mom is burnt out, you know, she’s 64 single. Mom raised me, my brother, we gave her hell. So dad put some, put some years on you and my sister, and we just felt she’s burnt out and she wasn’t financially ready. We didn’t really come from from a ton of money, but we, we told her, okay, Mom, I think it’s time to retire. Like we will we will help you. We’ll figure out how this will work. But you should retire. I think you’re burnt out. So she retired, and then that’s when things progressed even more, because now you don’t have that structure, that routine, that you’re going to the office every day. So then what we found was that she was in this slump of depression where she was just, she wasn’t getting off the couch. I’d go over to her house at the time, and she would just be sitting there on the couch, and went the curtains closed dark in the house, and it’s like, Mom, it’s beautiful outside. What are you doing? And you’re retired, you’re supposed to be, you know, enjoying your time, going out to lunch with friends, doing things. And it was really odd. And we know we knew something more was wrong, and it was. It was just a matter of what is and is. He never lives through it. You don’t really instantly think Alzheimer’s, you know, so we thought, was there? Was it a traumatic brain injury? Was there anything that happened to mom, like she was trying to remember if there was any impact where she got hit, that maybe this was causing that lasting memory fog? Is it something scary, like a brain tumor? Like, what could be going on? And we took her through, she started going to her doctors and expressing concern that I’m having memory loss. I just feel like I’m very forgetful. And sadly, her experience with with her primary care doc was probably the worst. I mean, I’ve shared the story with a lot of people, and you’re like, that is absolutely horrendous. What what she went through, her doctor would tell her, don’t worry, Gail, it’s not memory loss, what you’re dealing with. It’s is depression, and there’s medication for that, so I’m going to prescribe you Zoloft. And then would put her on Zoloft and tell her, you know, you can’t just do that without routine follow up, so come back in four weeks. We’ll see, you know, you’ll see, you’ll feel better. And she would go back in four weeks and still feeling the same, still not getting off the couch, still forgetful. And yeah, the doctor then would say, Well, don’t worry. Everybody you know responds differently to these types of medications. I’m going to wean you off. Come back in another four weeks, and we’ll try another one. So then try another, another antidepressant. Then he comes back in four weeks and still. So then he insists that maybe it’s, it’s not as much depression, but more anxiety. So I’m going to prescribe you Paxil. Come back in four weeks. I mean, this went on and on and on, Dave, it was crazy, and she went back, and at that point, then he said, Well, I’m certain that it’s anxiety or depression, but maybe you just need a stimulant to help get you going, so I’ll prescribe you a Wellbutrin come back in four weeks. We lost so much time because of that broken system of you know, in the healthcare system. And not to say that every every relations experience is going to be like that. That’s the worst that I’ve ever heard of. And when I share the story, people are like, Oh my gosh, but yeah, we lost. We lost six months, nine months of just this constant back and forth of trying different prescriptions on her, to the point that it got so crazy that he’s he suggested that she had ADD and that he was going to prescribe her Adderall, and it’s like it’s a 64 year old woman that has no history of Attention Deficit Disorder, and you’re suggesting that she would be treated for her memory problems, that she’s complaining of memory loss, and you’re suggesting Adderall. So that was kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back, because she didn’t try Adderall. She would come home in tears and literally cry and say, he doesn’t listen to me. He makes me feel stupid. I tell him, I I’m having memory loss, and he tells me, I’m wrong. He gets mad at me and. Would like, she’d be at home shaking and crying, and it was so hard to watch. So I start, I went to the the next appointment with her and my sister, and we were like, enough’s enough. When we demanded that he screener, and we actually demanded that he refer her out. Because we’re like, we don’t want our mom seeing you anymore. We want her to be seen by somebody who will, who will screen her. And I will never forget him looking me straight and I and saying, You’re barking up the wrong tree. And he closed the door, and he had to refer us, because we, you know, if you, if you go there, especially with a loved one, and you ask for a referral, they, I believe it’s a legal thing that they have to so he had to refer us, but he literally told us we were barking up the wrong tree, which is just like, still to this day, just gets under my skin. Yeah, so it’s appalling. At that point, we’re feeling great, you know, like, Okay, finally, we’re going to get some answers. We don’t have to deal with him anymore. We’re going to get to the bottom of what’s going on. But I think what a lot of people don’t don’t realize is the the of the bottleneck we have when it comes to seeing specialists or neurologists or neuropsych. It was a six to nine month wait to get her in with a neuropsych to actually do an assessment on her. So here we are feeling great that, you know, we’re going to get answers, we’re going to get this referral, and then we get told that it’s, you know, six to nine months out before we can have that appointment. So that was a bit depressing. And at that point, I mean, my mom’s anxiety through the roof, because this full time, she just knows something’s wrong and sharing. So she’s wondering, you know, again, like, I had a big dog back then, and like, in Yeah, at one point it jumped into her. And she was thinking, I you know, I think it was your dog that jumped into me, since she hated the dog, so she was blaming the dog or dog. But then we finally get her to the neuro psych, and I took her to the appointment, and actually, I take her there, and it’s a office that she had never been to. We had never met this doctor, so it’s a person she’s never met. Strange office. It was, it was odd. It was a real weird layout where this, we walked into this office, and it was completely empty. It looked vacant. And this doc comes out of this back corner and he’s like, all right, Gail, come back now. And so she’s walking back, and the doctor looked at me and said, This is going to be about two hours, and you can’t be here. And like, the look of pure panic on my mom’s face says she’s like, looking back at me as she’s walking back to the stranger’s office to get drilled with questions for two hours. I’ll just I’ll never forget that, that moment. And I was like, Mom, it’s It’s okay. I’m not going anywhere. I will be right outside. I’ll be right I’ll be standing right here in two hours. So I waited in my car, went back up, and the appointments done. So I’m like, Okay, awesome. Let’s get some results, except it’s about three months to get the results. So it’s like this whole process took, like, a year and a half, probably a year over a year, 15 months, maybe, um, of just wondering, like, what’s going on. And then in August of 2018, um, 18, she got the results. So I’ll never forget, so August of 2018 she got the results, diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer’s. And I’ll never forget I was in a different sales role at the time, and I was in Buffalo, New York, at the Marriott there sitting in my room doing work, and my phone rang, and when I picked it up, I just hear the sadness in her voice, and she was holding back tears. And I was like, Mom, what’s, what’s wrong? She’s like, I got the results. And I was like, okay, like, what’s, what is it? And she said, I have Alzheimer’s. And I don’t know if I was just ignorant or if it’s just everybody that hasn’t lived through it, just doesn’t really know. Because I was like, Okay, what? What does this mean? Like, I know what else I knew what Alzheimer’s was. I knew that it meant that you’re, like, losing your memory and your brain was, you know, changing, but I didn’t know time frame. I didn’t know was there treatment like I had no idea of, was this a death sentence? How much time are we talking? Had no idea of any of that. And I so I’m just like Mom, it’s it’s okay, we’re going to get through. And she just broke down in tears, and she was like, I cannot stomach the thought of not knowing who my grandkids are, because I have three kids. At the time, I only had two, but my sister has three, and our mom is, like, world’s best grandma. You know, that’s all she ever wanted to do. It was always, you know, with a lot of grandparents, it’s, Hey, I’ll babysit if I don’t have anything going on. But with my mom, it was, I’ll go do something if I’m not babysitting, like babysitting her grandkids. Was first she loved being with our kids. So, yeah, that was, that was really sad. And so she got the diagnosis in August, 2018 so to at that point is when I was like, Okay, what? What is Alzheimer’s? What should I be doing as a son? What can I do? And I just started researching, and somehow stumbled upon cognivue. And I really, I just went on the website and was like, wow, this is impressive, because I took her to all the appointments, and I sat through those paper and pencil screenings and side note she would, she would always do very well on like, and we would be left frustrated. Like, ah, she passed again, and then they say that nothing’s wrong. And like, we know there’s something going on. But she was just like, some of some of them were like, okay, table, Penny chair, remember those three words? And then a couple minutes later, asked her the three words, and she would be like she This is not how she performs on a regular day,
Dave Kemp 16:44
interesting. So basically, like this, the screen methods weren’t, weren’t touching her more or less.
Patrick Lawler 16:53
So they’re all different levels of sensitivity. And I’m not saying that they don’t work. But there they were not good in those early stages of being able to show us something was going on and the amount, and that doesn’t, and I’m not that can just be how it’s administered. So there’s a lot of factors. Yeah, the aid that comes and does it? It’s just, I always was kind of disappointed that, like, Man, I feel like it’s our word against this screening, and we’re telling them like something’s going on. But it wasn’t. We weren’t really able to get answers until later on and but so anyway, I was very impressed when I went to cognitive website that won the technology, because I just thought, wow, like, the the paper and pencil seemed very dated. And I thought like, wow, this is this company’s on this up then a self administered computerized device seems needed. But then I was really impressed, also that they’re in upstate New York, which we don’t have much. I mean, they’re, they’re not far from where I live, and we don’t have very much up here, you know, very serendipitous. Yeah. So at that time, my very first interaction with Dagan U was in August 2018 I reached out to the CEO from the just the website, just sent like a old email to him, but wanted to cheer them on, so I sent him an email and just said, I just took my mother through a terrible, you know, 15 months to get her finally diagnosed, and just shared how it went with her primary care, and I just told them, I stumbled upon your website, and I think you guys are onto something. I wish you the best, and I’ll be cheering for you, because I know my family would have benefited from being able to have access to something like this sooner. And he replied right away, gave me a cell phone number, and was like, and can you call me? And I called them, and instantly like, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom and what you’re going through. And you know, very nice, really, really nice guy. And we, we arraigned, like, the walk to end Alzheimer’s for Syracuse was a few weeks out, and he asked, Would I be there? And I said, Yeah, my mom, you know, we put together a team for my mom. We’re going to be walking. He’s like, I’d love to meet you. So I met him. I met him, and, like, two of the cognitive crew there at the walk and literally just shook hands and cheered them on, like, Hey, I’m rooting for you guys. I was I had a great job. Was not interested to make a move. Then that was it. Fast forward, two years later, two years after diagnosis, my mom. Passed away, and she’s diagnosed just shy of being 65 and she passed away at 67 and at that time, I, you know, a few months went by after passing passing away, but I I reached back out to him, and I can’t remember if I called or just sent an email what I did, but I reached out to him. I said, Hey, I don’t know if you remember me a couple years ago, I sent you a message. I met you at the walk my mom got diagnosed. I never told you what I do, but I’m in medical device sales, and I need to be a part of what you guys are doing. And he arranged for me to come into the office to kind of interview, and sent my resume, and I jumped over, like, a week later, wow, yeah, and my wife was like, You’re gonna I mean, telex is a big company. It’s a global, very large company. And my wife was like, You’re gonna leave and join what, you know, the startup in Rochester. But I just told her. I said, Trust me, you know. And she’s always like, she always, always has my back and knows, you know, that she just trusts me, and she also knew how passionate I was about, you know what? We just went through, me and her included, and my siblings, losing my mom, so she was very supportive of it, and I jumped over and it was a big risk, but it has been worth everything to be in this space, to be like, genuinely passionate about about your job I’ve never had, ever in my life, and to really feel like you’re making a difference. And to, you know, when I came in for the interview, they I, I told them, I said, I want to, I want this job because I want to talk about money home every day. And, you know, like you put together your resume, your cover letter, your letters of recommendation. I had, I had all of that, but the last page that I put together, you know, a little folder to give when you’re interviewing. The very last page was a collage of pictures of them. And yeah, during the interview, I said, That is why I want this job, because I want to talk about her every day and and I was able to do that, and it’s really been just so fulfilling for me to be able to talk about her and to keep you know, in a way, keep her alive. For me to such a sad story that happened, but I love sharing it, because I think like if I can help one other person not have to go you’re not going to help them not go through it at all. But if I can help their their journey while they’re going through it, and make it a little easier than what we went through, it’s worth it. And a lot of times people are like, Well, what difference does it make? You know, what difference does it make if you can’t, if you can’t stop the outcome, but the difference would be the experience for the family. I mean, the time that you you are literally giving them time. So whether or not my mom was meant to pass away at February 15, 2021 even if that date didn’t change, if we had access to these results and we knew what was going on, sooner rather than wasting an entire 15 months of these like pointless doctors appointments, that’s, I mean, I would give any amount of money for one day with her right now, you know to get 15 more months of being able to cherish that time knowing what is going on and if we knew that it was Alzheimer’s like, there’s a lot that we could have done. We could have planned more financially. We had to put her in assisted living, like things like that. That all like, it would just help our family to make those choices. But then also, like, things that I did, like, I I was traveling. I’ve always traveled for work, and I was on the road, you know, three nights a week. I probably wouldn’t have done that. I probably tried to work closer to home and spent more time with I mean, it’s, it’s, there’s a lot that even if, the if, even if you can’t change the outcome, you can change the experience. And that’s what, you know, I’m really passionate about trying, you know, to help in this role.
Dave Kemp 24:33
Hey, it’s, it’s, yeah, thank you for telling your story. I know that it’s not a fun story, necessarily, and it’s painful, but I think it, it really does kind of lend itself to this whole backdrop of, I think, a much more, you know, a broader conversation that is so relevant. I mean, I will never forget, you know, I was at the F com meeting, so that’s the Florida combined nodal laryngology meeting, and I. At that. And I’m in a presentation where it was Jill Davis, and it was, I can’t remember who the other audiologist was, and, you know, this was kind of my first exposure to cognivue. And you know, Jill was talking all about how she’s using it in her practice as another, you know, sort of tool to illustrate what’s really going on with the patient? And you know, in this presentation that they’re presenting, they’re talking about sort of generational fears. And you know, they talked about how, you know, for you and I, like our grandparents generation and every previous generation, it was like heart heart risks, or it was cancer, and now you know, with today’s generation, like the number one fear is dementia, Alzheimer’s cognitive decline, yet here you are telling this story about how it took you 16 months for your mom to more or less be diagnosed with it. I can’t even imagine how painful and just how much anxiety you would have throughout that process of not fully knowing what’s going on as the patient, as the loved one. So I think that you do a really good job here of illustrating just how broken this really is. And I think that, you know, this applies to a lot of different areas of healthcare. You know, I think that it’s not a preventative model, it’s a reactive model. And so, you know, there’s a, there’s a whole conversation like we could have there about our healthcare system in general. But I, I just find this to be one of those things that it, it really, clearly is it’s a obviously a pressing concern for a significant portion of the of the population, but in you know, practice, it’s as far as I understand. And I’m not going to pretend that I’m an expert of how cognitive screenings are broadly administered in the country, and all the various versions of that and the types of medical professionals that are administering those tests. But I think that your experience is probably more common than atypical, because most people are usually going to do they’re going to default to like their physician, just like you did. And so you’re, you really are sort of, then at the mercy and in the hands of that physician, and whether or not they’re sort of practicing to their full scope. And when we know that, you know, this is sort of a newer field of science, more or less. I mean, we’ve known dementia and Alzheimer’s have existed, but the brain is still such a frontier that we’re learning so much about that, you know, it’s, it’s, it doesn’t surprise me that you went through this experience, because chances are, that physician, more or less, was wildly uneducated in some of the more modern, you know, ways in which this type of thing can be administered. So again, I I think you just tell a story that’s highly relatable, whether you’re directly impacted, or you know somebody that went through something very similar, the consistent sort of point remains of the broken nature of like, how do you even really know? And then also, not just, do I know? Am I sort of in the midst of cognitive decline or early onset of Alzheimer’s. But what’s the rate of decline? I know nothing. You know it’s like, all I know is it’s really, it’s like a check engine light. It’s like, you know, the light’s on. But so all of this is to say it’s 2024, and I kind of feel like this is one of those things that’s the forefront of of like science is how do we knowing that this is such a pressing concern for a lot of people and this is such a fear, how do we do a better job of alleviating that fear by maybe developing better methods of diagnosing and screening this and then properly administering those. So I know that’s all kind of like right in in your wheelhouse, within cognitive view, if you’re wearing that hat. But just Patrick, you know yourself as a son, it’s like to, you know everything you just described, like that, all sort of can get at least alleviated, to some extent, if they had just been able to diagnose her more efficiently.
Patrick Lawler 29:26
Yeah and yeah. So, I mean, in my opinion, Patrick as as the sun, I think there needs to be brain health screening at an annual physical that’s and no one company is going to accomplish that, like cognivue is not going to be the one to figure that out, and there’s not going to it’s going to take all of us. And that’s why I honestly don’t feel like in this space, I’ve never looked at anyone as a competitor, because we are all fighting for the same thing. And it’s going to take all of us getting out there combined to to really make a difference when we’re when we’re looking to I mean, I this is going to sound bad, but I don’t care about selling I don’t care about selling devices. I care about the impact that we can have on communities and on families and patients and the it’s going to take a whole army of us to really make a difference. So that’s what I’d like to see. And I would argue that probably all of all of the you know, people in this space that are on this fight, it would like to see that too. I mean, you get your get your vision tested. People are getting their hearing tested. You’re getting blood pressure cuffs, but you’re letting the most, arguably the most important part of your body go just, we’re just not going to talk about it, you know, like, what does that mean? Well, it’s
Dave Kemp 30:52
an interesting point that you make, though, because, you know, the audiology industry obviously can relate to this. I mean, in some instances you get your hearing tested, but in many you don’t. I mean, it’s kind of completely absent of the annual physic physical. And you know, that’s been something that’s been a point that’s been lamented for decades of like, why isn’t audiology? Why isn’t the hearing assessment a broader priority for the average position? And you know, their pushback would be that there’s not, you know, kind of like the whole achieve trial that Johns Hopkins was setting off to do. A big part of that was to help justify why your hearing needs to be screened on an annual basis, trying to kind of justify incorporating a new process. So, I mean, you’re right where it you’re basically, you know, adjacent to that, basically petitioning the national roster of physicians. Hey, give this more attention. And the point I’m making is like they’re getting petitioned on on all these different fronts, which sort of then begs the question of, well, who is the right medical professional to administer this? I mean, I think that in all the conversations I’ve had with you, you know, I think it’s clear, it’s like we’ve identified that, yes, there is clearly a need for cognitive screenings. There’s definitely a need for a better way to screen for a lot of these things. I mean, just based on everything that we just talked about, and the question is, who? Because, just as you know, you can draw the same comparison with the audiometric evaluation. It’s like, you know, when people talk about how little adoption there is for hearing healthcare, and you point to all these different potential culprits of why that might be. This is amongst one of the biggest of like the fact that it is completely void of when you go and you see your doctor, if he’s not making any mention of like, you really need to make this a priority in the same way that you do with your eyes and your teeth and all of these other body parts. Your ears are just kind of completely neglected. And then, so now you’re saying, Well, you actually need to take it a step further, and you need to be assessing the cognitive function. Like, when do you do those screenings? You know, it obviously just opens itself up to a whole new line of questioning. And I think that what’s interesting is it’s like, obviously, you know, this conversation was had strategically at cognitive view at one point in time of which medical professional makes sense to administer this test, and they landed on, well, what about the audiologist, or what about the hearing instrument specialist? And I know this has been topic of contention, I guess, within the industry, because, again, it’s extremely nascent. I mean, when we’re talking about how audiology is conducted in all of the various settings, you know, a lot of what that that is anchored to is, you know, from the 1950s 60s, 70s, you know, the times when there weren’t very effective ways in which you could screen for something like cognition. And so it’s like a lot of these arguments are sort of antiquated. And I, you know, I’m not really trying to argue one side or the other. Of like, the audiologist should be the primary person to be administering and facilitating this test. I kind of can see both sides of it, but I think that it’s only natural for a company like yours to be exploring these different avenues, because it is such a question mark, of like, who really is the appropriate person to facilitate something like this? So, and
Patrick Lawler 34:24
that’s, that’s the kind of the golden question. And what I don’t know, if you’ve ever seen the meme of all the Spider Man’s pointing at each other, that is, that’s the image that pops up into my totally
Dave Kemp 34:40
that’s a great analogy.
Patrick Lawler 34:44
Yeah, the the audiologist thinks it’s not me, it’s, it’s the primary care. Primary Care is saying, wait a second, I only see the patient for seven minutes. I don’t, I don’t have time to do this. It’s, it’s the neurologist. The neurologist is thinking, Wait, hold on. I. I’m doing, I’m doing more than this. One of you guys does the screening and sends them to me. So it’s this ongoing, like just everybody, kind of ducking and dodging, weaving, pointing the fingers somebody else. And I would say, at cognivue, like I just said, my what I would love to see is, at an annual physicals, that this is adopted and that it’s part of it. And I would like to see that be an overarching change for country. That’s what needs to happen. That’s not something that happens overnight. Obviously, like you alluded to, you know, the the hearing, healthcare space, has been fighting that battle for a long time too, and it’s still, you know, still being fought. So that’s going to continue to be fought. And there’s a lot of a lot of people in the space that are, you know, petitioning for that. But in the meantime, what we see value in is partnering with any clinician that sees an at risk population. So an audiologist, yeah, they see patients with hearing aids, and with this, all the science coming out about hearing loss and being a modifiable risk factor, that does make great sense that they would do this. I’ll tell you why I the reason I like it in audiology is because or hearing healthcare in general, because they see their patients for much longer time. The time slot with a patient is much longer than the seven minutes on national average. I believe it might be 11, but I know some of that is with, you know, the nurse taking vitals. I think it’s sure seven to 11 minutes on right healthcare is seeing their patient, hearing healthcare, you’ve got a much bigger time slot to be able to really talk more holistically. The other reason I see great, great value in it is because these patients are seeing you regularly. They come in every 12 months. That, to me, is huge, because again, back to my story with my mom. When I took her to that neuro psych she’d never met this woman like her, anxiety was through the roof going into this stranger’s office to get trolled into questions. Had she gone to Dave Kemp’s audiology? And you know, she might not jump up and click her heels every time she comes in for her hearing to be tested, and, you know, to see you, but she’s used to doing it. She comes into your office, she’s familiar with the space, she’s familiar with the staff, and to sit down and take a much less invasive screening there. It just makes perfect sense, in my opinion. Now, that’s not to say that the hearing healthcare is the only space that they’d send. I mean, we’ve, we’ve partnered with independent pharmacies because we know that there are medications that could cause some impact with memory fog. We also know that they’re seeing at risk populations like diabetic patients. So there, there are multiple different avenues, and really, with the end goal being, we need to get this to the patients, because while we wait for this overarching change in the US healthcare system to take place, who’s left to suffer. It’s the patients and their families. So we need to get this in front of people and give them access, so then they can go and what we’re finding is a lot of primary care. Actually, they’re appreciative because they don’t have time to do it. So then they’re getting a referral, they’re getting the results, and they’re appreciative of it. I do want to back up a way back. I didn’t want to interrupt, interrupt you, but you, you mentioned Jill Davis, and I absolutely love Jill Davis when I started with the company. Is the first I’ve ever met her. But she gave a presentation, and I heard how how she was doing things, and I literally sat in the audience and started choking up. And when she got done, I just, I was like, Can I give you a hug like me and my siblings, searched for somebody like you, somebody that would take the time to have this conversation. And it’s not mandatory. You know, you’re she’s doing it because she sees the valuing and treating her patients with the best level of care. So you mentioned the name, yeah, and honestly, she’ll listen. I gotta give her little shout out, Jill, if
Dave Kemp 39:31
you’re, if you’re listening, I mean, she is, I think, the epitome of like, you know, she is just looking this as another, you know, like tool in her tool belt, and it helps for her, like the thing that I thought was, like, such a so remarkable way of the way she was using it was, it was really to to sort of help craft a broader story. And that, to me, is like, when you can, you know, and that takes up. Special person, I think, to be able to take these sort of disparate data points and then on a person by person basis, really help them to explain, like, okay, like, here’s really what’s going on here, and connecting all these dots. I mean, that’s massively valuable. And I think that’s kind of been the question is, like, how replicable, more or less is, like her procedure and process, because when you see it in tandem with, you know, being able to really explain the benefits from a, you know, modifiable risk factor. And it’s not fear mongering, it’s really just saying, Look, here are, here is sort of the way in which your you know impairment is going based on these assessments. And here are ways in which we can sort of stunt the progression through some of these modifiable these modifications, like, we’re going to aid you, and she’s got, she’s got all of these different data points that show, like, Okay, so here, here you were unaided, here you are aided. Here you are pretest. Here you are post test. And so she helps to really, kind of break down and show, this is what I was getting at. It’s like, it’s one thing to say you are in the midst of of, you know, early onset of Alzheimer’s or dementia, but it’s different to say, here’s sort of like, almost the rate of progression. And here are some ways that we can maybe try to, you know, bend the curve a little bit. So anyway, I I found that to be like, for me, that was sort of like on full display of like, here’s how this thing can really be used when it’s, you know, at full throttle, when you have somebody that really knows what they’re doing. And I guess, as far as I kind of remember, that was the question mark then became, I think, for cognivue of like, how can we sort of templatize some of this stuff that she’s doing to make this reproducible across other providers and stuff like that. And again, it’s hard, because a lot of what was driving that was her and her expertise of being able to blend these disparate sciences together. But it really did sort of display like, Wow. This is what it really looks like when you arm an audiologist with a tool like this. It was impressive.
Patrick Lawler 42:24
So I will say two things. But first, Jill actually just did some training, a whole bunch of training videos for us. We have a bunch of, I think it’s like 12 modules. So that’s brand new at cognitive so we do have training modules to really dig into the specifics of how she uses it. Now, to back up, you had mentioned fearmongering. I, I will not do business with somebody that’s that’s trying to scare patients. I, I can tell you, I mean, I’m overseeing the sales team at this point, and I have actually pulled a device in the past, because I kind of learned how it was being used in it. It wasn’t, it wasn’t an audiologist, but I just didn’t agree with it, and I, I would refuse anybody in the market that’s using it to fear monger and to try to scare patients. I would gladly pull that that device back and eat the loss, then to take advantage of arguably the most vulnerable population that that we have. So I just want to say that, because there is nothing more important to me personally than these patients and their families. And you know, dollars on on the bottom of a balance sheet are not more important than that, I would gladly pull device back that’s being used in a harmful or negligent way, right? And 100% stand by that. The other piece is kind of like the the recipe for success. It’s going to look different with everybody, because everyone’s going to have a different style. Everyone’s going to have a different approach. I mean, you see Jill Davis give a presentation, and then you see Keith Darrow give a presentation. Their their talk tracks are wildly different. Their mission is the same, and what they achieve is the same. And they’re both very, very successful at what they do, and awesome. I love both of them, but their approach and their style is different, and it should be, you know, everyone has their own way of the, you know, their own brand. I would say, what the the common denominator is, is that they have confidence. They’re willing to dig in and to talk about this. That is, that’s. Uh, the the underlying problem is, I’ve had people that say, literally upset to me, I won’t touch this with a 10 foot pole. I won’t touch this conversation with a 10 foot pole. And to me, that’s it’s disappointing. It’s kind of like a knife in the in the heart. But I literally replied to them, and I said, Well, I understand that you’re not ready to have a conversation like this right now. I do trust that we’re going to talk again in the future, because the industry is heading this way, and when you’re comfortable, give me a call back. I’m not here to force your hand on anything, but the confidence that’s that’s the problem. I’ve had people that have said to me, I don’t want to have this conversation. It’s scary. And I always say, right? It is scary, but What’s scarier is not having the conversation, because that’s what we lived through. Is a doctor that didn’t want to have the conversation and just strung us along for a year and a half, and we lost a lot of time. So I would say that’s kind of the recipe. There would be the confidence to have the conversation, and knowing, I think again, being new few years in audiology, but it was very apparent quickly in this industry that almost everybody in this industry is in it because they want to care for patients. You know, they they are in this profession because they truly want to help patients, and they want to give them their hearing back, and they get joy out of helping and being, you know, the solution. And when it comes to cognition, that there might not be like an overall, like, one size fits all solution, because it’s such a multi layered disease that so many different things play into so that can be discouraging to them, because they’re they’re like, Well, I don’t want to talk about it If I personally can’t fix it and I can understand that. But also if, if we’re not having the conversation and getting that that journey started for the patient, we’re really doing them a disservice. You know, you might not be the one to help them, but without you, how long would that patient go without having any idea of what’s going on? So if we can be the one to identify it and say, Listen, I’m I’m staying in my wheelhouse, I’m going to treat your hearing. We know the two can go hand in hand, and we’re going to monitor this, but if, if we don’t see improvement, we’re going to refer you back to your primary care. I’ll provide them these results, and they can talk to you about other risk factors that could be impacting this. There are a lot of modifiable risk factors. Hearing loss is only one now, if we were so like, that’s what we need to remember, is that we are not the only modifiable risk factor. So you can have confidence telling them, Hey, I’m gonna, I’m gonna address the number one modifiable risk factor. But if that doesn’t you know, if we don’t see improvement, I’ll refer you to your doc and they can look at the other modifiable risk factors and try to get to the root cause of what’s going on to me as again, as a patient or as a loved one. That would be so valuable, because even if it’s like, okay, like I said, even if that, that end date is the same, now we’ve been made aware, like, if Jill Davis did this, I literally was, like, holding back tears hearing about how she does this. Because I’m like, wow. Like, she doesn’t, she probably has no idea what a difference she makes to and not to everybody. I even, I think, I think I told her this. I was like, you might have nine out of 10 patients that you do your, your whole, you know, battery to, and you might have nine out of 10 that are like, Why the heck did you make me do that? And they score, they pass with flying colors, and they’re just ticked off because they’re they don’t understand why I had to do it. But that one patient that is like, Oh, wow, like something’s going on. And then they maybe it’s the hearing loss, maybe they started a medication that isn’t reacting, you know, properly. Or maybe there’s, there’s so many different things that can happen so, you know, maybe it’s untreated sleep apnea, and they can, they can then start their journey of looking at right, looking into it, of what’s what is causing me or mom or dad to to be like this. I just think it’s, it is so, so important, and I truly appreciate all the all the people who have have taken hold of this and have done it in their communities, because I believe they’re making a huge difference.
Dave Kemp 49:50
Yeah, I think it’s, it’s just all so new, and it’s one of those things that it’s going to be interesting to see in five years. Like. What’s the dominant method of how this is provisioned? You know, whether it’s cognitive or it’s something different, like, who, what type of medical professional, you know, and like, Are there reimbursement codes, you know? Like, it’s just going to be kind of interesting. Again, I just feel this is all so nascent, and a lot of the behavior and sort of interactions that you’re experiencing, I think, are like a variety of different reactions to this, you know, sort of Roki broaching this, this brand new topic, and some people are really enthusiastic about wanting to participate, and others are for a variety of reasons, saying, maybe I’m not the right person for this. But I think that the question sort of gets that, that gets begged is like, who is and, you know, it’s like, at what point in audio in the in the course of the audiology history, like, when was, you know, it deemed that vestibular sciences would be a part of this whole thing, you know, and what was the catalyst behind that? You know, there’s, there’s some of these subspecialties within this field that are now just sort of exist in they are part of this broader family of Sciences. But, you know, there was probably a point in time when that was controversial, of when that was going to be ushered in and made part of the scope. And so anyway, I just, I feel like, you know, you’ve kind of been at the forefront of of this brand new method of screening for something that is clearly very top of mind for a lot of people. And I think it’s just a fascinating sort of element to the modern day. You know, hearing healthcare landscape is cognition screenings, like, that’s a new a brand new thing. And I think it’s, it’s fascinating to watch the reactions of, you know, some people that are really enthusiastic and others that are adamantly opposed, and the whole spectrum in between. And it’s just one of those things to kind of understand where these positions are and why those positions exist. And from there, I think you can really start to kind of build a consensus across a lot of these different people within this profession of what is the appropriate way to facilitate this, yeah,
Patrick Lawler 52:22
and I respect everyone’s decision and everyone’s opinion. I mean, everyone’s entitled to practice that, as long as it’s not a malpractice but I mean, everyone’s entitled to their their approach and how they want to do their their job, and I respect it. But I would say like you said, that I’ve had conversations where people are not like I said, I want to touch this conversation with a 10 foot pole and but I can also say I’ve had such good experiences like one that stands out as I was presenting to a shortly after I joined the company, and I was presenting to a hospital group, and it wasn’t hearing healthcare, but gave this presentation, and room full of doctors and nurses, and I’m leaving and walking out to my car, and the door is open, and I’m literally like, Stepping out to the parking lot, and I hear somebody running behind me, and they’re like, Patrick, wait. And I turn around, and I’m like, it’s, it’s this woman, she was a nurse that was just in the training. So I’m thinking, Did I forget something? I’m looking to see if she’s bringing me my computer or something, and she just, she runs up to me and like, I’ll never forget it. And like, the the glazed over look like she kind of got up to me and was like, oh shit. Like, I would like, she didn’t really like, she looked like she was a little uncomfortable. And she was like, I’m so sorry. But something told me I had to come get you and just tell you how proud your mom is. And, dude, I get chills right now just talking about it, like, I, like, just got chills. Started tearing up, and I was like, Can I give you a hug? Like, that was the best moment. And I just got back to my car, and I sat there and, like, just like adrenaline, adrenaline rushing, texting my wife, like, you’re not going to believe what just happened, and it’s not like this crazy experience. But like to me, I was like, Oh my God. Like, that’s why I do this. Right for her to do that in, in the way she did it, like she came up and was like, it was out of her control that she was coming to tell me that he was just like, I don’t know why, but something told me I had to come tell you your mom is so proud of you. And it was like, it was so cool, man. There’s been a lot a lot of experiences like that, like when I, I skipped to this part, but when I took the interview with cognivue, I, you know, I called the CEO and we arranged. He’s like, All right, come into the office next week. What? Ever. And I got into my my car and my driveway and, like, put in cognivue and the GPS hour 12 minutes, and I pulled up. When my mom passed away, we put together a playlist, because we didn’t want just like instrumental piano. We wanted like mom songs. So I put, I pulled up my playlist that I have a mom playlist. And you might think I’m, like, a sociopath, but awesome. I listened to it on the way I’m at the office right now. I listen to it on the way here, like I listen to it weekly, because it reminds me why I do what I do. And you know, I’ll tear up listening to some songs. But it just brings me back to like, Okay, this is why, you know, yeah, you’re gonna get, you’re gonna get people that say no, you’re gonna get people that say they don’t want to do this, whatever. But there, there’s a need for this. And keeping that kind of, in a sense, keeping that wound open just helps me, like live in the moment that okay, there are people that are dealing with this right now that are where I was four years ago that need help. So anyway, hold up that playlist. Hour, 12 minutes, start to finish, from my driveway to the parking lot of cognitive I listened to my mom’s playlist from start to finish. That’s okay. And it was, yeah. So, like, when my wife was like, You’re gonna do what I was like, No, babe. Like, trust me, I got this and, like, there Something tells me, like, this is, this is what I’m supposed to do. And there’s been, there have been a lot more situations like that. Like, during my my new hire training, I asked the CEO, like, so, we’re owned by Mr. Tom Tom Golisano. He’s a founder of paychecks payroll company, very, very successful businessman, also a huge philanthropist. His name is on a ton of hospitals across upstate New York. So growing up in upstate New York, like everyone knows that name, they don’t know him personally, but everyone knows the name. But he is probably the biggest success to come out of upstate New York, and it’s it, I’ve just been aware of of who he was for since I was a kid. And always, like inspiring, like growing up, I didn’t want to be, you know, Michael Jordan. I wanted to be a businessman, like I wanted to be a successful businessman. So, like, when I started with cognivue. I asked the CEO at that training, like, how much do I have to sell to get a meeting with Golisano? And he laughed at me, and he’s like, you know, not gonna happen. But then fast forward, like, 667, months after I did pretty well right out of the gates, because I’m just very passionate about what we’re doing, and I don’t, I think I’m not pushy, I’m not trying to talk about features and benefits. I’m just talking about the need for this. And if you can relate to that, and if you feel, if you could sympathize with that, then maybe you want to be a part of this, like it’s going to take a lot of us. And so fast forward, like, seven months later, I’m driving, and I get a phone call from the CEO, and he’s like, I want to make it happen. And I was like, what he goes I want him to meet you. So months go by, I hear nothing, and I’m like, I’m not letting you get out of this. So I’m calling him, texting him like, hey, hope you didn’t forget to set that meeting up like you told me you would of trying to, like, just, you know, hold them accountable for it. And months go by and I’m thinking, like, that’s not, it’s not going to happen. And all of a sudden I get a call from him, and he’s like, Hey, next Tuesday, whatever you’re doing, like, clear your calendar, reschedule any meetings you have, I will come into the office and I’m setting up a meeting with you and and Mr. Golisano. And I’m like, on the phone, like, Okay, I’m going to check my calendar now I’m checking and I just chill. And he’s like, are you good? And I’m like, It’s my mom’s birthday. Wow, yeah, so it’s, there’s down in both there. There’s been so many things that are like now keep me going through this because it’s such a passion, and also it’s inspiring. I mean, when I meet people like a Jill Davis or a Keith Darrow, absolutely love him like he is. Anybody that wants to be a part of this mission that is going to promote the need to talk about it, to talk about a scary topic that people don’t want to talk about, but if we talk about it, we can help people. So it’s been a it’s been a wild ride, and I think we’re just getting started. So I’m, I’m really excited to to keep it going and and to, you know, just see where, where things take us,
Dave Kemp 1:00:07
awesome, man. Well, I can’t thank you enough for coming on and telling your story today. It’s, I think it really helps to provide color behind you and the company and sort of the mission. Because, you know, I think regardless of how you feel, you can’t fault, you know, this group for trying to kind of Usher and change in terms of, you know, trying to prevent stories like yours, the real instances. So where can people wake up with you? What’s the best way to connect with you for anybody that might want to learn more, just continue the conversation. Yeah, absolutely. So
Patrick Lawler 1:00:45
LinkedIn, I’m very active on LinkedIn. I’ve got a lot of a lot of hearing healthcare that I’ve connected with on there, but LinkedIn, or my email, is just my first initial last name, pwaller@tognavite.com and if you forget both of those, you could go on the website and submit an inquiry, and just in, I think there’s a notes section, and you could just say, Talk to Patrick, and they will come to me and I’ll give them a
Dave Kemp 1:01:12
call. Awesome, very cool. Well, thank you again, Patrick, for coming on telling your story. It’s been a very interesting conversation. Thanks for everybody who tuned in here to the end, we will chat with you next time. Cheers.
