This week on the Future Ear Radio podcast, I’m joined by good friend and co-worker, AU Bankaitis Smith. AU is a PhD Audiologist and the Vice President here at Oaktree Products. She also now takes the honor of being the first person I’ve interviewed in-person for the podcast.
During our discussion, AU shares her Audiology journey from its roots, some of the most influential people who helped shape her career, some of her major professional milestones, and her recent Samuel F. Lybarger award (awarded to an individual who has made important contributions to research, engineering, or other technological achievements within the field of audiology).
Throughout the conversation, AU discusses her battles with imposter phenomenon. She details what imposter phenomenon is, the various times that she encountered it during her career, how she has managed to work through it, and the importance of owning her own success.
This episode was a long time coming as I have been meaning to bring AU on the podcast for a while (considering we work together!). It was cool to hear someone as accomplished as her really open up and be so candid with her experiences with imposter phenomenon, and certainly helped to open my eyes about how pervasive it is and some methods to manage it.
-Thanks for Reading-
Dave
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dave Kemp:
Hi, I’m your host, Dave Kemp, and this is Future Ear Radio. Each episode, we’re breaking down one new thing, one cool new finding that’s happening in the world of hearables, the world of voice technology. How are these worlds starting to intersect? How are these worlds starting to collide? What cool things are going to come from this intersection of technology? Without further ado, let’s get on with the show.
Dave Kemp:
All right. So we have a little bit of a different episode this time around this is the first in person podcast that I’ve ever done. I got my road caster equipment here so that I can start to do these kinds of in person interviews, and the first person that I wanted to do now that I have the equipment to do an in person interview is none other than A.U. Bankaitis, Dr. A.U. Bankaitis. So welcome on. I’ve been wanting to have you on the podcast for a while, and now that we have the equipment, we can do it. So let’s just start, introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us about who you are and what you do.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So A.U. Bankaitis. My first name is not my real name. It’s actually [inaudible 00:01:13], it’s Lithuanian. Got the nickname when I was in college. But the interesting thing about me, Dr. A.U. Bankaitis, is you’re looking at somebody who A, had zero plans of ever going to college, let alone pursue a PhD. Number two, when I was a junior in college, I had decided, oh, it’d be great to be an audiologist until I found out you had to have a master’s degree. So I almost changed my major.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Then at one point in my career, when I was a little bit lost and wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, I amicably left a job and figured I’m probably not going to be an audiologist. So I’ve tried to leave a field. No offense. I love audiology, but I think that’s one of the most interesting things that I laugh about thinking, wow, I love audiology, but tried to leave it a couple times.
Dave Kemp:
So how did you even get into audiology? What road led you to that?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So the funny thing is, once I decided to go, my dad convinced me to go to college. Basically, literally my plan after high school was to move to New York, get a job, meaning waiting tables. I loved football and I wanted to be an announcer for football. I figured I’ll just figure out a way to do it. So my dad was like, “Hey, long story short, don’t you think you’d have a better chance at that if you went to college and actually got a communications degree?” So that’s the only reason I ended up at Cleveland State University, because I grew up on the west side of Cleveland, Fairview Park. And about a month before the fall quarter started, that’s when I applied, got accepted and figured I’ll try one quarter. So with the communications major, you had to take certain requirements.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So I had to take a communication disorders, intro class, which I thought was interesting. I’m like, this is cool. So then I thought I was going to be a speech language pathologist, probably similar story to most of my colleagues. Then when I had to take intro to audiology, it’s the infamous Frederick Martin textbook, where I opened up to the page where they have the dime, and on top of the dime, they have the three osacles. I just said, this is fricking cool, and just loved it. Audiology to me was more black and white, very scientificy. I simply decided that’s what I’m going to do.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. You do have a little bit of a scientific brain, I would say.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Little bit. Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
I say we, as in the Kemp, so my dad and mom and Michael, my brother. We were at the Lybarger award ceremony. We’ll talk about this more, but I loved the award speech that you gave, and it helped to kind of inform how I wanted to do this conversation because you outlined that you said there were three “Bks” that helped shape your kind of career trajectory. The first one, and I feel like this is a good place to start with kind of the throughput here, is this professor that you had that really nudged you toward getting your PhD. So can you kind of just walk me through, okay, you had this epiphany. Audiology, pretty interesting. At what point did you decide, not only do I want to go and pursue audiology, I want to get a PhD?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So in my junior year, I did try to change majors. I actually went to the counseling department where you take all these different tests and it just cracked me up because it spit out everything, like you should be a speech, language pathologist or audiologists. I’m like, okay, I guess the universe is telling me, this is the path that you need to take. So reluctantly I’m like, I can’t believe I have to go get a master’s degree, because that was the requirement. So when I started the graduate program at Cleveland State University, I didn’t even go to my undergraduate ceremony because it was on Sunday, and the next day I was starting graduate school because I just wanted to graduate as quickly as possible and see patients and do all that fun stuff.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Well, there was a newly hired assistant professor in [inaudible 00:05:42] who was great. By the second quarter, because I had to take a couple classes from her, obviously, she quickly pulled me aside one day and just said, “You should seriously consider pursuing a PhD.” And her saying that, I sort of laughed at first, like who are you talking to? That quick comment, I remember all during the weekend, I would hear her say it and just go, I can’t believe she said that to me. I can’t believe she said that to me. Why did she say that to me?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I never thought I was perhaps smart enough or, in my head, that wasn’t part of my plan. So I never thought about it. But within a relatively short period of time, her and I started doing research and I realized that yeah, this is probably something that I need to explore. She was extremely influential in inspiring me to continue my educational studies. She actually came from the University of Cincinnati. So that was one of the schools that I applied to, and I ended up choosing the University of Cincinnati for a couple reasons. Namely, because she was able to hook me up or the program was able to assign a mentor to me, at that time, Dr. Keith, who I never met and didn’t really know much about. So that’s how University of Cincinnati basically came into play.
Dave Kemp:
So when we were kind of talking through before we started recording, we were coming up with some of the different themes that we might want to talk about, and something that you’ve been a pretty big proponent about lately and you wanted to talk about on this is imposter phenomenon. I find this to be so interesting because anyone that knows you, you don’t on the surface seem like somebody that would have this. That just is purely speaking of probably not being aware of how pervasive it is, but I just find this to be interesting that you had mentioned the first time that you really started to feel this was right around this time in your career.
Dave Kemp:
You’ve had bouts of it, I guess you would say, throughout your career. I just again think that someone that’s as accomplished as you, those of us who are coming up now can look to you, and I think it resonates to say, wait, you’ve had this. So I just want to give you an opportunity to kind of talk through that. So can you just share how this all I guess originated?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Well, I think … and I didn’t know. You feel what you feel and you sometimes don’t know if it means anything, other than that’s what you’re feeling. Because I was never going to go to college, I think pursuing a PhD, I’m getting accepted. It did freak me out a little bit because I never felt like I was smart enough and thought, my God, I have to work 10 times harder to make sure that I succeed. I had a couple of siblings who pursued PhDs, but I always looked at them as, man, they’re super uber smart. I just never put myself in that same category.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So that was part of it. I was also a little bit concerned, because the University of Cincinnati’s program was outstanding. One of the things that intimidated me was you not only had to, okay, you’re getting your PhD, but you also have to pick three different minors, and one of the minors that they forced you to pick, which meant you had to take at least seven courses in, was statistics. I just thought, oh my God. I’m not a calculus wizard.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So all of that just intimidated me. So that’s where it started. Where it really kicked in was it was before the age of 30, because I got my PhD when I was 27, but right before the age of 30. Okay. So I graduated with a PhD. While at the University of Cincinnati, I received the distinguished dissertation award for my research, which is a pretty big deal. They choose one dissertation topic out of every department, medicine, engineering, whatever. Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
Kind of a big deal.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Kind of a big deal. I walked around with a crown for about a week. But anyway, so you get these research awards. I published nearly 20 works. A lot of it in the area of HIV AIDS and infection control that were peer reviewed or book chapters. I ended up developing a niche expertise in infection control. I was being asked to do a lot of either state level or national level talks. The best way to basically describe imposter phenomenon is to let you know what was going in my head during that time.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So despite all of these successes and accomplishments, there were two things that were basically going on. Number one, I was unconsciously or subconsciously attributing my accomplishments to something other than my own ability. So my dissertation topic was HIV and AIDS. So I automatically was like, well of course I got the distinguished dissertation award because it’s a new disease. It’s a new virus. Perhaps it would be politically incorrect for them not to choose my topic.
Dave Kemp:
Right place, right time.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Correct. It was just timing, hot topic. Awesome. Then I started thinking, man, how lucky was I? People are just being nice. That’s what was going through my head. Then the second thing that I was doing, I was overworking and overexerting to the point where I assigned astronomically high standards for my own work. So there was a tendency for me to obsess about everything had to be perfect. I agonized over the smallest flaws, always focusing on what could have been done better instead of looking at the overall picture going, Hey, this was pretty good. But most importantly, and this is very critical for people to understand imposter phenomenon, I was actually ignoring constructive criticism. The reason I didn’t want to hear it … and constructive criticism isn’t bad.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
But the reason I didn’t want to hear it is because I perceive that any kind of feedback like that was an indicator of my ineptness. So you start to not listen to any of that. So at the end of the day, my head was filled with so much self doubt that there would be times I would be on my way to a presentation or right before I had to present and go, holy crap, how the hell did I get here? I don’t belong here. I think somebody made a mistake, and so much that I constantly depreciated my own value by never giving myself any credit. So basically the whole definition of imposter phenomenon is chronic self doubt due to the inability to own your own success. Man, it’s real. I had constant chronic self doubt and I was incapable of owning my own success. It’s pretty scary when you get in that situation.
Dave Kemp:
This sort of reminds me of what we’re seeing from Naomi Asaka, that young female tennis star who has come out saying she’s been battling this really crippling self doubt and anxiety. Top of her game, world superstar, and she’s not above that, I guess. Then with you, it’s sort of analogous in your trajectory. Within your academic career, you have the best dissertation, literally the best dissertation across all the PhDs in your class. But that you’re still saying that there was a lot of this imposter phenomenon. So I just find this to be really interesting. It seems to me like the only way that you can really solve this is from within, right?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
There is something that researchers … and you’re correct, but there is something that researchers call a cycle of distress, and this cycle of distress is more typical of women. Imposter phenomenon does happen in both men and women. Although, research clearly shows that it’s at least double … you’re going to see it twice more often in women than in men. Then the other interesting thing is it actually manifests differently in men versus women. So research shows that men basically tend to attribute success to ability. Whereas women tend to attribute success to listening and working hard.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So men and women, as a result of that, are going to have different triggers. So for men, the trigger of imposter phenomenon tends to be fear of being unsuccessful, which is why a common coping mechanism is for them to choose to be in a place where they can be a big fish in a small pond. Whereas for women, the trigger tends to be an achievement related task. Even applying for a job can trigger imposter phenomenon. There’s this interesting research statistic that shows men will … if there’s 10 bullet points of requirements for a job, men will apply as long as they meet four. Women will not apply unless they meet all 10.
Dave Kemp:
Wow.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So that’s the big mind difference.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. I see what you’re saying.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
The gender difference. So women, because of the way they approach it, they tend to fall into what’s called this cycle of distress, which is important to appreciate if you want to manage your imposter phenomenon. Before I talk about that, just real quickly, according to, I think it was the International Journal of Behavioral Sciences. They said that nearly 70% of adults go through this crisis of confidence that could be consistent with imposter phenomenon.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So there’s nothing wrong with having these feelings. It’s just understanding that it’s common and it’s real and there are ways to manage it. In order for me to manage mine, it’s important … let me just break in a nutshell, this cycle of distress. So for women, and that includes me. I’m a woman. An achievement related task would be assigned and that would basically trigger the self doubt in your head, like, okay. Then that creates a lot of anxiety. Then that anxiety ends up causing you to over prepare, over work. Interestingly, in some cases, it can also manifest as an initial phase of prolonged procrastination where you then eventually end up experiencing this extremely intense last minute rate of over preparation. But at the end of the day, you’re over preparing, overworking.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Then once the task is completed and delivered, there’s a tendency to discount feedback. As the feedback is discounted, the voices in your head tell you that you succeeded because you put in so many hours, you burned the midnight oil. It was lucky that you got it done the last minute. Basically, this record in your head ultimately diminishes the validity of your achievement. With each new achievement related task, this cycle of distress begins over and over again until you get to the point where you just simply cannot own your success.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So for me, I call it my ABCs. What’s important is this is what worked for me. I actually got out of this rut about 10 years ago, but then it resurfaced again. I had to do a couple things to get over it. But I think what would be interesting is to break down what I would go through internally.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Like when I was asked to do an infection control presentation.
Dave Kemp:
Perfect.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So I can do an infection control presentation in my sleep.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I’ve been talking about an infection control since 1995.
Dave Kemp:
Literally wrote the book on it in infection control and the hearing clinic.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah, and I feel extremely confident. If somebody stopped me in the hall, I’d be like, [inaudible 00:18:51] and it’s like, no big deal. As soon as somebody would call and say, “Hey, would you be willing to do a presentation?” As soon as I said, yes, it created a lot of anxiety because suddenly I would be like, oh shoot. I wonder how many people are going to be attending. Who’s going to be there? Another thing that happened early on in my career that actually contributed to this is I would not only over prepare, and then go, okay, once you get on the plane, you’re okay. I remember going to a conference and registering because I’m like, oh, okay. I wonder who else is presenting? When I saw a list of three people who I’m like, oh my God, these are real researchers. These are real audiologists. These are people that I … I almost had a quasi panic attack where I’m like, I can’t believe I’m on the same program.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
That led me to go to my hotel room to basically write out a script. Okay, a one hour presentation. If you write out word for word, what you’re going to say, you’re talking about 30 pages. That’s what I started doing because I’m just like, in order for me to be on the same stage as these individuals, I need to sound smart. I need to look smart. I need to do all these things. I would obsess and obsess and obsess. I would never go out to dinner with colleagues before presentation, because I would have to practice my presentation, because it had to be perfect. It was almost like I would memorize a one hour presentation.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
And if I got one word wrong while I was talking, practicing in the hotel room, I would start all over again. It was just obsessive awfulness. Then once I presented, I was done. Yeah, it wasn’t so bad. I was so relieved. But the reason I was relieved is because A, I was tired because I didn’t sleep the night. I worked too hard, and I just was like, oh my God, I finally am not putting myself in a position where people are going to say, well, she doesn’t belong here. What are you doing here?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I just remember the only fun time after a presentation was getting on a plane and being able to sleep the way home.
Dave Kemp:
Knocking back a couple cocktails on the way home.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Oh yeah. So it was during a AAA when I had to do an ALD talk and I was actually working for Oak Tree. It was very early on, and I remember the Oak Tree gang was like, come out to dinner with us. I’m like I can’t, I can’t. That’s when I finally realized, I cannot believe I cannot go to dinner with my colleagues and coworkers because I’m obsessing over perfection. That’s when I’m like, this shit’s got to stop or it’s going to kill me. So I was able to manage it. But when it resurfaced recently, I had to take additional steps, and this is where the ABCs come in.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So the first thing I had to do is acknowledge it. I think anybody who’s experiencing imposter phenomenon feelings, and there’s a really good 20 item survey that was created by Dr. Patricia Rose Chance. You can look her up. She’s the queen of imposter phenomenon. She was the psychologist who first started talking about it in 1978.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
You can take this scale, and it’s not a diagnostic scale, but it’s basically designed to allow you to compare how you compare to others when it comes to feelings of imposterism. So when I took that scale, I was like, oh, oh wow. I have some things that I need to obviously work on. So, one of it was acknowledging it. Actually, part of my acknowledgement was talking about it. So in 2021, I was actually trying to back out of a presentation. It was during the Dr. Jill [inaudible 00:22:58] thing. I was supposed to talk about negotiations, which I can totally talk about negotiations, but I was so down a deep, dark rabbit hole of self doubt that I finally had to tell Jill, “I don’t think I can do a presentation.” She was like, okay. She asked me, “Is there any other topic you want to talk about?”
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Finally, after a week I said, “You know what? I really need to talk about imposter phenomenon,” because I had started reading up more about it, and started realizing how it paralyzed me. So, acknowledging it, talking about it, but you can’t talk yourself out of imposter phenomenon. So the other thing I had to do is break the cycle of distress. There’s a really good book that I would recommend for women. It’s by Valerie Young, and she’s the author of the Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. One of the first things she suggests in breaking this cycle is start out small.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Basically she says, when somebody pays you a compliment, say thank you and then shut up. Let me tell you, you do that little experiment. I couldn’t believe how many times people would say something to me and I would go, “Oh, thanks, but.”
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Oh, thanks, but. Oh, well I had a lot of help.
Dave Kemp:
Just self deprecation all the time.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah. When you start consciously going, wow, I can’t believe I’m doing that automatically, it just makes you aware. It’s not the magic pill that’s going to fix everything. But the other thing that I started doing, and again, these are things that worked for me. You have to understand a little bit about, I guess, brain plasticity, which is the ability of the brain to develop new brain cells, form new connections and functionally adapt as a result of experience. So I always appreciated brain plasticity. I came across the work of a psychologist and neuroscientist who got all his degrees from Harvard. So I assumed he was a pretty smart guy, but his name is Richard Davidson. He’s actually the founder of the Center of Healthy Minds in Wisconsin.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
What his research found was that people become more resilient. There’s people around here that, man, water off of duck’s back. There’s other people, they spill their milk and it ruins their entire week.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
He was doing a lot of this kind of neuroscience research, and he found that people became more resilient when they have increased interactions between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. The amygdala is basically your brain’s emotion center that processes threatening and fearful stimuli as well as anxiety. What he found is the way that you strengthen this, and research shows it, is through what’s called mindful breathing. I say all this, because in the past, people would tell me, do some mindful breathing. I’d be like, okay, I would do it for like 30 seconds and said, screw you. I don’t have time for this. Cause it’s like-
Dave Kemp:
That is very much on point for you.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah. Then you’re just like, what the heck am I doing? But when I started reading his research and he connected the dots going, okay, this is what’s actually happening. You sort of give it a bigger chance. So, that’s what I used to do. When I used to feel overwhelmed at work, I would stop and just do some mindful breathing. It really created a nice anchor to be in the present, in the now, and just to chill out and not worry about that stuff.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
The other thing that I had to do was control the self doubt. This is going to … we all have what I call challenging ants in our head, which are these automatic negative thoughts. I had a lot of them, and I literally, one day when I was preparing for an infection control presentation, and I was freaking out going, people are going to think I’m dumb. People aren’t going to believe me.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
This was during the COVID pandemic, because you would think, oh my God, A.U. is going to be so prepared to respond. I was, but I think what people didn’t see was what was happening behind the curtain every day, just going, what if I say the wrong thing? Is it going to mean that their business is going to shut down? Those are the weird things that go through your head. So I literally had to sit down and I had to write a list of everything associated with infection control that made me knowledgeable. You start writing it and I felt silly, but after a while you have this physical piece of paper, that’s evidence of why are you self doubting yourself so much?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Then I had to do what I call … there’s always that elevator pitch, like, Ooh, if you’re involved in business, make sure you have a 20 second pitch that you can tell somebody what you do, what your business is, blah, blah, blah, practice it. So I decided to make an elevated you pitch. Because I’m like, okay, I need to create something that I can repeat to myself if I start feeling out of control, where imposter phenomenon is just the chronic self doubt is going to paralyze me. Literally, I had to do this before every presentation at one point. But basically the message I had to tell myself is I had to take a deep breath and just go, A.U. you know this shit. That’s what I had to say out loud.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Then once I said that, I was like, okay. I was able to move on in a productive manner. So those are the things that work for me. There’s so many things available out there. So, even going to, I guess, a psychologist or psychiatrist, whatever, but these are the things that actually worked for me and have helped me tremendously.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. I feel like we’ve all probably had semblance of this. It varies in the degree of severity from person to person, instances where people might find themselves in a situation where they don’t really feel qualified to be on the same stage as someone and feel underwhelmed by their own accomplishments when you’re comparing them to other people. For me, one of my big takeaways from this conversation is the importance of finding a balance of being aspirational, but not getting too caught up in “keeping up with the Jetsons.” We all bring a unique in value perspective to the table and it’s simply different from those around you or one another.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Agreed. In an appropriate context, your feelings associated with imposter phenomenon can certainly be a motivator. However, when you start getting into this cycle of distress, it’s a huge problem because it comes at a very high cost in the form of living in constant anxiety, which is physically, mentally, emotionally exhausting, over preparing overachieving, which usually results to burnout. Also yeah, stifling potential where opportunities arise. So one of the things, and to your point, that I also had to do was I had to stop the cycle of over preparing. How do you stop the cycle of over preparing when that’s all you’ve done for like 20 years?
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Part of it was realizing I needed to stop being a perfectionist. Perfectionists hold themselves to unrealistically high standards. That does a couple things. It actually makes life less satisfying. Even trivial things become stressful because you’re focusing on what went wrong versus the overall picture. Like I said, you get emotionally burnt out and tired. I think what’s important for people to understand. Perfectionism is not the same thing as having a healthy drive to excel. You can seek excellence without demanding perfection.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Julie Cameron basically has a really nice quote and she basically says, “Perfectionism is not a quest for the best. It is a pursuit of the worst in ourselves. The part that tells us that nothing we will do will ever be good enough.” So for me, I had to adjust unrealistic standards. So I had to let go of my super high astronomical standards and basically tell myself not everything deserves 100% effort. The other thing is I had to set smart, realistic goals that were specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time bound.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So I got to the point where, instead of spending 24 hours on a one hour infection control presentation, that I’ve already done a hundred times, I would tell myself, you have two hours and that’s it. And then you’re done, and you can’t write a script. You’re done. I sort of had to force myself to do those things. Then I had to really just cut myself some slack by giving myself permission to prepare perfection. In that book that I mentioned by Valerie Young, she has a list of rights in the back of her book that I really liked where it says, “You have the right to make mistakes. You have the right to be wrong. You have the right to have an off day. You have the right to say no without feeling guilty, and you have the right to achieve above or below the expectation of others.” Just realizing, and then making a plan has just made it so much easier to live life.
Dave Kemp:
Well, I think it’s interesting. I wonder if this is a byproduct of just it being more top of mind now that people are acknowledging it. But I hear it all the time, and I wonder if it’s also something that young people, because of the fact that you’re not as accomplished, you feel like, okay, how can I be someone that can hold a candle to this person that I’m presenting in front of or behind, that has 20 years my senior. But I think it’s interesting to hear you say, you had mentioned that it resurfaced later in life as well. So it’s not something that’s a young person thing.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
No, it’s not. It actually surprised me when it resurfaced. It took me a while to realize that’s what was happening. So, during the pandemic, you remember when we had to sit there and go, what are we doing? We decided we’re going to send everybody home with pay, which everybody was making those decisions. So everybody was stressed out. Everybody was unsure. People were like … it was just a really, really scary time. So I contributed that to, okay, everybody’s just stressed out and I was upset going, oh my God, I hope the tree is going to be fine. I hope our customers are going to be fine. It was just terrible. But what I started realizing was one day, at first I thought, God, are you just depressed? Because this is sad.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Because we used to have … there was a group of women colleagues. We used to have happy hours every week. Part of it was, somebody was losing a business and you’re just like, oh my God, what can we do or whatever. It was just stressful. But what happened to me, I assumed it was the pandemic. But what happened to me is I started … every day I was getting multiple phone calls. I was working remotely from work. More than happy to talk to people. But then when people started asking, “Hey, we need a presentation,” it wasn’t for CEU purposes. It was, we need to be up to date. I started getting a little bit overwhelmed simply from the perspective that I’ve been talking about infection control all my life, and now we have this new thing and it’s fluid and it’s ever changing.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So I was having a little bit difficulty reading all the CDC stuff and keeping up, but I was doing a fine job. That’s how we figured out the list [inaudible 00:36:03]. I was on top of it, but slowly those negative feelings started creeping in where I’m like, God, what if I say the wrong thing? What if I tell somebody? It’s so silly that I look back at it now. What? I’m going to tell them to use this disinfectant, and if they don’t, their business is going to shut down?
Dave Kemp:
Right. Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
But in your head, I was just so concerned that I was going to say the wrong thing, that was going to cost somebody their business.
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
That I went down a really deep, dark rabbit hole where it got to the point where I … and Oak Tree products didn’t know this, but I would say no to presentations. They were remote, but I’m like, no. I couldn’t do it, because I just simply got paralyzed and I couldn’t snap out of it. So I went through that process and then I started reading up, and then I started getting the help I needed to talk about it. There it was, but it’s pretty ironic that something that I’ve studied for all my life, that I should be most prepared to deliver, I did deliver, but I went down that rabbit hole.
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So it was a dark place for a little bit.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. Well, it’s kind of crazy too. Just kind of touching on that part of your story, so you get your PhD at the height of the AIDS epidemic or right after the AIDS epidemic. So this real topical thing. Then as time goes on, I kind of was joking about how you and Bob taught me the infection control talk. I was in the Wisconsin Dells for the Wisconsin Hearing Alliance. I think it was January or February of 2020. There was a slide in my presentation that was talking about the importance of infection control, just sort of in passing, mentioning the potential for pandemics.
Dave Kemp:
I remember I had people emailing me afterwards as the pandemic broke out, people being like, “Did you know something?” But my point is, it’s like, this thing that you were an expert in, and you sort of built your expertise on, becomes extremely relevant again 20 years later.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
Then I think it’s just fascinating though. I think for me, this is so interesting to just hear about. You were maybe the most qualified person to speak on this specific topic at this specific time. Tet it’s still the imposter phenomenon rears its ugly head.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
I just find that interesting.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
But I think, if you talk to more people within our field … I remember polling, and it was not a scientific poll and whatever. But I did ask three or four questions from the imposter scale phenomenon. I put it on a close Facebook group and just said, Hey, answer these questions. Basically what happens is you’re answering questions and you assign a number one to five as to how true that statement is of you. So for example, I often worry about succeeding with a project, even though others around me know I can do it. Then you assign a score. One, that’s not true at all for me. Two, rarely, all the way to five, very true.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So long story short, I pulled 220 women audiologists, and 85% of them scored … their scores on those three or four answers would be consistent with somebody who suffers from imposter phenomenon feelings on a daily basis at a high level. It just made me go, oh my God. I sat there. I remember talking about imposter phenomenon in a room full of business owners, audiologists who have their own private practice. We did that exercise, same sort of results. Somebody asked me, “Well, what does that mean?” I go, “You know what it means? It means I’m standing in front of a room full of very smart, intelligent women who think anything but about themselves.”
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Again, it happens in men too. I just think life is tough. Life is busy. Life is whatever. There’s just things that we do, whether you’re a perfectionist, whether an overachiever, whether you feel like you have to know everything before you have to make a decision. There’s things that I think you sometimes need to take a step back and go, what’s my ROI? Is my 80% going to be good enough? Because that’s what … Sorry to tell you, but that’s what I do at Oak Tree now. But I think I’m more productive because, instead of going balls to the walls every day on every project, it’s like, okay, this is good enough right now.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
And you know what? My good enough is usually good enough.
Dave Kemp:
Usually pretty good.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
But there’s other times where you do have to put in 110%, but you’re able to do that because you know how to manage the tank, so to speak. So I bet you more people suffer it, experience it more than we think.
Dave Kemp:
Yes. That’s definitely one of the takeaways I have from this conversation. All right. So I find this to be a very interesting backdrop to your career. Let’s go back in your story a bit though. We had been talking about your [inaudible 00:41:26] speech and the three BKs. So number two was Bob Keith who seemed to have a pretty big impact on you as one of your key mentors. So what does Bob Keith mean to you and what was that part of your career like?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah, so as the recipient of the Samuel F. Lybarger award, I said, there’s like a million dots that had to connect. But there were three that were extremely influential in helping me give back to the profession of audiology. So we already heard about [inaudible 00:42:01] from Cleveland State. Bob Keith, I don’t have the words to sew together as to what an influencer he was in terms of making me a better audiologist, a better researcher, mainly through his example. He had a tough … Dave, you know me, but man, imagine me younger and more opinionated and louder than I currently am.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I was quite the handful and he was not only … He wore many hats with me. He was a professor, so he was my teacher sometimes. At that time, I had to get a CFY. I was doing my CFY, my clinical fellowship year, working 20 hours every week to become an audiologist while going to school full time. So he was my CFY supervisor. He was involved with research. We wrote a lot of stuff together. So he was working as a colleague. I didn’t have family in Cincinnati, so there’s times he was more of an uncle to me and he was a mentor. So there’s just a lot of different things that he taught me.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
The first one I remember from day one, when I met him, he’s like, “Well, you’re working with me.” He goes, “So I’m going to tell you know, you’re going to give back to the profession of audiology in any way that you can without expecting anything return, because that’s what we do.” He set the expectation. He’s like, “You’re going to volunteer for different organizations and you’re going to do whatever it is that you can do. You’re going to become active in your state audiology chapter, and you’re going to do research.” That was lesson one, and that was the expectation.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
He was also instrumental in coordinating the initial meeting with Dr. Peter Frame, who was the director of the AIDS treatment center at University of Cincinnati. That’s the whole reason we were able to collaborate and do some pretty phenomenal, interesting research. But working with him really inspired my need to educate and advocate. Again, he’s taught me so many lessons. Nothing you’ll ever see on a syllabus, nothing you’ll gain from a course.
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
It was, he prepared me to be a free thinker, a leader, a researcher, a colleague, an audiologist. I know if he were not my mentor, I would not have gotten as good of an education, even though I got a great education from the University of Cincinnati.
Dave Kemp:
Well, so when you say I’m going to give back to the field of audiology, there were probably a lot of instances throughout your career that are representative of that, but there’s none more that I can think of than the AAA that never was. I’m probably going to make you cry right now, just talking about this, but that-
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Oh, it’s such a good program.
Dave Kemp:
Such a good program.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Best program that never happened, because it was the only program that never happened.
Dave Kemp:
The AAA that never was, the New Orleans 2020 show.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
I just remember being at that Eddie show in Kansas City. That was right around when the music stopped. I remember looking at you and being like, “You don’t think that AAA is going to get canceled, do you? I think that the thought hadn’t really fully occurred to you yet, because you were pretty adamant like, “I don’t know.”
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Well, it wasn’t up to me, but to me … and I remember because I had Eddie conference was right around my birthday. I was somewhat surprised that the Eddie conference was happening. But then I’m just like, okay, no big deal. I did know that AAA was monitoring it. It was interesting because Catherine Palmer, who was president elect, her and I worked a lot throughout the year and preparing the program along with all the other co-chairs. She called me. She said, “Hey, I want to talk to you.” I said, okay. She was so sweet because she said, “Hey, we have a board meeting and we need to make a decision. But I was just curious to get your thoughts.” I simply told her, I said … Well, they had already canceled March madness. So I was already on a ledge.
Dave Kemp:
This is not good.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
This is not good. I’m like, you got to be kidding me. But my immediate … I didn’t even have to think. My immediate reaction was, if you have to cancel, cancel. It’s a pandemic. I love audiology, but I’m not willing to get really sick over it. But no, she said, “Well, thank you for your feedback.” I think she was a little bit surprised because she knew how much time and effort it takes to plan it. But I’m just like, do what you guys need to do. So when they canceled it, it wasn’t surprising. I had to do my little speech.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
What was really awesome was the outpour of people just going, I am so sorry. It was just really sweet. But it was such a good program and I just felt bad for a lot of the first time presenters. I’m like, man, you’re losing this opportunity. I know that they’ll be fine, but it just … yeah, it pretty much put things in perspective. I think what surprised me more, because I’m like, oh, I’m sure next year Denver will be in person, and that didn’t happen. So this was a two year thing, and it’s still ongoing. But I guess we’re just better at managing it with the vaccine and all, but yeah.
Dave Kemp:
But did you feel like that was … Was there a little Bob Keith in your head telling you need to step up and be a program chair for AAA? Did that come from that sense of feeling like I need to give back to the profession? Because it’s not as if you were getting paid or anything like that.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
No.
Dave Kemp:
It was totally a voluntary thing, and you spent a ton of time on that.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Right. I’ve always given back to the profession some way. I used to be the … when I first came to Missouri, I got on the board. I was president of the Missouri Academy of Audiology, helped put together the scope meetings. I was on AAA’s government affairs committee earlier on. I served on the foundation board. AAA actually approaches individuals, inviting them to be program chair. So when I received the invitation, when they asked, “would you be willing?” I think because of Bob Keith, and because of what he instilled in me, the answer was yeah. But I did … Your dad was not retired yet. I did have to talk to Bob and Margie, because I told them. I said, “This was offered to me. It’s going to be a lot of work. I’m going to be using some of Oak Tree’s time to do this.” There’s obviously times I’m going to be working in the evenings on this, but I needed their okay too, because whatever. They, without hesitation, saying this is a great thing. So yeah.
Dave Kemp:
So, that brings us to the third BK.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yes.
Dave Kemp:
I thought for sure you were going to just say Bob Kemp.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I know.
Dave Kemp:
So you threw us all for a loop when you said band of Kemps.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yes.
Dave Kemp:
But obviously you’ve been with us here at Oak Tree for like, what is it now? 20 years?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Almost. It’ll be 19 years, I believe in June.
Dave Kemp:
That’s so crazy.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
In January. Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
So I was a young lad when you first-
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
You were a young lad.
Dave Kemp:
… when you first started working here. I guess maybe, we don’t need to spend too much time on this, but I just think it’s really interesting. First of all, I think that it’s important to recognize why you came on board was largely, again, due to your work with infection control. I know you and Bob wrote infection control in the audiology clinic. So do you want to just start there and talk about how did that come about?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So the way that I actually met your dad in person is sort of funny. So when I first came to St. Louis, I was director of audiology at St. Louis University Medical Center. We were having issues with the supplier who was responsible for the audiology supplies. I remember calling a colleague saying I’m having issues. I’m like, do you have any suggestions? I just remember she said, “You idiot, Oak Tree products is located in St. Louis.” I was just like, oh my God, I didn’t know. I’m like, I didn’t know that.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So anyway, I sort of met your dad over the phone that way. But when I was an assistant professor at Wichita State University, I was coming back from a conference and I was talking to a colleague saying, “Jerry Northern approached me, asking me if I could guest edit a [inaudible 00:51:23] hearing on HIV AIDS.” So I was talking to my colleague and she’s like, “Well, you got everything lined up into your head?” I go, “Yeah, but I got to find this Bob Kemp dude. Him and Ross Rose are doing infection control stuff and I got to contact him.”
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
All of a sudden, somebody taps me on the shoulder and like, “Are you looking for Bob Kemp?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He goes, “I’m Bob Kemp.” And I’m like, “No way.” That’s how we basically met.
Dave Kemp:
Did he whisper that to you?
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I could barely hear him. But I’m like, man, I should have asked for, I need a million bucks. You need a million bucks? Here’s a million bucks. But instead, I got Bob Kemp. So, that’s how we started working together. Then when I became unemployed, I worked for a startup company. Things didn’t go well with the product. A lot of people got let go. During that time off is when I decided I wanted to write an infection control book. That’s when I reached out to your dad going, “Hey, would you be interested in co-writing it with me,” and what have you.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So as a result of that, we started talking more about business and him and your mom, Margie, invited me to … they wanted to put together a five year business plan. They’re like, “A.U. we want you to come in as a consultant to give us a bird’s eye view of the industry that’s outside of Oak Tree products.” It was a three day meeting. After that meeting, they actually said, “We would like to extend …” They didn’t see it coming. I didn’t see it coming, but we worked so well together that they’re like, “We’d like to extend a drop off for you.” I was just like, “Oh my God.” Bob was like, “Well, I know you live in Colorado, you probably don’t want to …” And I said, “I actually do. I want to come back to St. Louis.”
Dave Kemp:
Wow.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I do. But I want to come back on my own terms. It was just perfect.
Dave Kemp:
A million dots had to come together for you to kind of have this career trajectory that you have.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
One of those dots, I guess, being when you and I started the blog together.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Remember that? What’s a blog?
Dave Kemp:
I was looking through. I went to your blog and I just started scrolling back to the beginning, and I saw your first post was in 2010, which makes sense.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Oh my gosh.
Dave Kemp:
I would’ve been a sophomore or junior in college.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
So I was getting my marketing degree. So I was like, I could work in the marketing department at Oak Tree.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yes, you could during the summers.
Dave Kemp:
Which is really funny that we have these departments and stuff, went in reality, it’s just all of us just wearing different hats.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I know. Exactly.
Dave Kemp:
So I worked closely with you, but that was the first time I ever worked with you.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
Obviously here we are today doing a very similar thing just in the 2022 version of it.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
We’re doing a podcast instead of a blog post, but that was so representative of how you and I have always worked together, which is like, all right, we got to figure this thing out, flying by the seat of our pants.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
That’s right.
Dave Kemp:
Lo and behold, it turned into this amazing forum for you to share and kind of, I think, be the role that Bob and Margie saw when they wanted to bring you on, which is you have always been such a secret weapon for us because you re the liaison to the audiology community. We have an audiologist, and I feel like that’s been massively important.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
They brought me in to give objective management, because they wanted to grow the business. But I also feel that all our principles basically align. So for example, just because I worked for Oak Tree, I remember telling Bob. I go, “If I don’t think a product’s going to work for somebody, I’m not going to sit there.” He’s like, “oh no, no, of course not.” And I’m like, “Okay. I just want to make sure we’re clear, because I’m not going to start whatever.” So I think we were all on the same page in terms of different people need different solutions and not everything fits. If you don’t believe in something, you don’t … When people ask me a recommendation, I just say it. I never sit there and go, oh my God, I need to censor it. I need to make sure it’s okay. That’s what it is.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
We’re here to provide busy providers with supplies, options, solutions to give them the information they need to make the most informed decision. That’s what I love.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Because I can just be an audiologist, And I can just tell people what I think. That was one of my concerns about joining a company.
Dave Kemp:
Right.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Because it’s like, oh man. As an audiologist, I was always autonomous. I was always able to go, this is what I’m dispensing and I don’t feel … whatever, but I didn’t lose any of that. So it all worked.
Dave Kemp:
It all worked.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah.
Dave Kemp:
So as we kind of wrap up, come to the close, I just think the Lybarger is a really good place to kind of conclude it. I guess, where things stand with your imposter phenomenon, I think that it’s really interesting. The coolest thing with that whole Lybarger thing was that I didn’t realize that whole room of people, you could tell that was a really special room of people. I remember Michael and I looking at each other and we were just so in awe and taken aback by the list of nominees. All the people that nominated you for that award, it was like half a page.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So does that mean I’m going to get a big raise next week?
Dave Kemp:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
So somebody at work, a colleague at work asked, were you nervous? And I said, no. But let me say this. If this would’ve happened a year ago in person, I honestly don’t think I could have gone on stage. I couldn’t, because I probably was not at a place … Well, I probably would’ve forced myself, but I wouldn’t have had fun. I would’ve faked it, and it would’ve been perfectly fine. But this was something where I was able to go, wow. I’m very proud and I’m humbled, but wow. So it was Julie [inaudible 00:58:07] She said, were you nervous? I said, no, these were my people, man. I’m like, it was like being in a wedding.
Dave Kemp:
Totally felt like your people, yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Like at my wedding and just going, oh my God. I wish there was a bigger room. I wish more people could come, simply because I look back at of all the different honors and awards recipients. It’s just an incredible event to go to and just reflect on the contributions of many different people. For me to be forever a recipient of the Samuel F. Lybarger award, which I’m in the same company of other recipients, [inaudible 00:58:50] and Dr. Sing and David Prieves and Earl Hartford and Elaine Saunders. It’s nuts.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
It’s crazy.
Dave Kemp:
It is pretty crazy. But I think, again, it’s cool that you’re acknowledging that. Because I think again, it’s part of this thing of taking a deep breath and recognizing you’ve done a lot.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Yeah, and owning it, owning your success.
Dave Kemp:
Owning it.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Well, it’s funny because during the group hug … the company has a … for people who don’t know, we don’t literally hug ourselves, but we have a company meeting every day, before the phone’s open, just to say hi and just whatever. It was funny because I remember somebody asked wow, whatever. They said something like, oh, how was your speech? I remember I just said, I’m really proud. It was really good.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I could have never have acknowledged or said that 10 years ago and then two years ago. So anyway, yeah, it’s nice to be recognized, but for me, it’s nice to be able to actually enjoy it.
Dave Kemp:
Yeah. Enjoy it. Bask in it.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Bask in the glow.
Dave Kemp:
Awesome. Well, this has been fun. I’m really glad that you finally came on.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
I was so far away down the hall from you.
Dave Kemp:
So far away. But no, this has been a great first in person podcast episode. I really do, I think that a lot of people are going to really appreciate this whole topic of imposter phenomenon, and thanks for being so candid about it, because I think that you being willing to be so vulnerable and just transparent about this is probably going to really resonate with some people out there. So I think it’s really cool.
Dr. A.U. Bankaitis:
Great. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Dave Kemp:
Thanks for tuning in today. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Future Ear Radio. For more content like this, just head over to futureear.co, where you can read all the articles that I’ve been writing these past few years on the worlds of voice technology and hearables and how the two are beginning to intersect. Thanks for tuning in and I’ll chat with you next time.
