Hello and welcome back for another episode of the Future Ear Radio podcast!
Today’s episode features Annie Duchen, Au.D. and Amanda Fadden, AuD. from Sony’s OTC Hearing Aid Team. We discuss the Sony OTC hearing aid offering and the OTC hearing aid product category as a whole. Much of our conversation revolves around how hearing professionals are getting involved in the OTC channel and how the ultimately might impact one’s clinc.
-Thanks for Tuning In-
David
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dave Kemp 00:00
All right, everybody, and welcome to another episode of future ear Radio. I’m really excited today to be joined by Annie Duchin and Amanda Fadden. So how are you two doing today? Thanks for joining.
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 00:21
All good David, thanks for having us today. So excited to be here. Awesome.
Dave Kemp 00:26
Okay, well, let’s start with some backgrounds. Give your quick I guess, background of you know how you got into this industry, this profession, would love to kind of go back to the start, so I’ll let either one of you kick things off here and shed a little bit of a light on your backstory. Why
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 00:47
don’t you go at it? Amanda, and I’ll follow you. Thanks. Annie. Well, my name’s Amanda favin. I am an audiologist by background and training. I think probably, like many of us in the audiology field, my education started in Communication Sciences definitely sparked more interest from me in those audiology courses versus speech path. So it felt like a natural pathway to pursue my AUD following my undergrad. You know, audiology, to me, is more than diagnose and hearing loss, it’s really just making those connections. And just enriching others lives, basically improving their quality, quality of life. So I have any strong clinical background in ENT where I was diagnosing hearing loss, treating patients with hearing aids, and I really enjoyed it. In 2022 I had the opportunity to join ws audiology, to work on a new market offering, which allowed me to still be impactful in the field of audiology, just in in different ways. So I really enjoyed the journey of OTC. And yeah, I’m just passionate about helping humans hear better, and in my position now, and I’m able to do it sooner, that’s
Dave Kemp 02:08
awesome. Well, thanks for being here, Amanda, how about you? Annie?
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 02:13
Um, yeah. Amanda, thanks for giving the usual background of how we all become audiologists. Maybe we want to be speech therapists, and we don’t, or I think that’s true for lots of us. Anyways, that was how my path brought me to audiology, too. I started my career in pediatric audiology, so I did diagnostics and device supporting and fitting when appropriate for patients age birth to 21 I always joke in pediatrics that you’ve actually worked with the whole lifespan, of course, beyond older adults, because a 21 year old is functionally more like fitting an adult than a child. So I love that experience. And another thing I did in grad school and after grad school was some outreach trips for people in developing countries, teaching audiology like building a sustainable training program and fitting program. And the reason why I was so interested in that, along with pediatrics, is because I really care about getting people good technology in ways or places that they can’t, and that’s what led me to the OTC team overall. I realized there’s a great need in our own space for adults to have better access to safe and high quality technology. So I’ve been on the wsa OTC team for three years, well actually closer to four years now. I’m the head of sales and customer service for our team, and so help build out you know, that whole function of that team, as Amanda mentioned, this is an emerging market. That means it’s an emerging team and partnership that we have with Sony, which I’ll be happy to share a little bit more about. But basically, my passion is about people getting the help that they need, and my hope and now understanding of what the OTC category can do is supporting that reducing those barriers to good options for people with hearing loss, which, of course, are the right candidates for these products. Love
Dave Kemp 04:03
it. Where were the humanitarian trips that you went to, all
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 04:07
in Guatemala, okay, um, yeah. And it was cool. I, you know, I got to start as a student in that space. We would AUD students would go, and then I ended up leading the trips. We’ll get. You get to train as a student. You get to train students, and then you get to train local people. And the point, of course, is like, we know, with some of these sustainability or with some of these outreach programs, it’s sort of like drop hearing aids and go, and so we were trying to build something more like when we drop the hearing aids and go, who could help, right? So that’s just side passion. So
Dave Kemp 04:37
as we were talking about, you know, before we started recording, I said, you know, this is, I think, a really relevant conversation right now, because it feels to me that, you know, if you look back at sort of the trajectory of OTC, you know, it’s like, okay, so you had the PCAST report initially from, I think it was like 2016 2017 or actually, maybe even preceded that. I think it was 2015 and. And and so then you had, you know, sort of this, like process of coming to market and all that. And so you had a lot of time for people to sort of process this and come up with their position, more or less. And it just feels like we have, I’ve seen this arc of, you know, the industry, I think, as any industry would it, it’s going to sort of, I think, initially look at things from a change standpoint, like, Okay, so here comes new change. And of course, your mind can then go to, is this going to be a threat, you know, is this going to potentially cannibalize my existing business? Is this going to make is this going to render me as a professional, irrelevant over the course of time, these types of things. And I feel like what’s happened is, you’ve sort of had this progression of sentiment where people are now, I think kind of the professionals are realizing that, look, this isn’t something that’s earth shattering. It’s not something that’s going to swiftly, you know, disrupt this whole status quo overnight. And frankly, it might actually be an opportunity. And so I really was excited to have this conversation today to understand that dynamic of, okay, we all know what OTC is here. We all know that this is not going anywhere, right? It’s a whole new product category. I think it’s important to note the distinction that the FDA did make in terms of what constitutes an OTC device and what constitutes a prescription hearing aid. These have been in the market for a little while now, and so I think I just wanted to hear from you all like, what are you learning? You know, in terms of, how are the professionals responding to all this? Is this being met with trepidation, enthusiasm? Are people starting to actually include this in their offering? What does that look like? So, tons of different directions that we can go with this, but I’ll kind of kick it over to you to just say that’s the general observation I’ve had, is that we are, we’ve kind of traversed this, this spectrum of, you know, initially, maybe people having a tendency to be a little bit fearful and defensive, and I feel like that posture is now sort of changing to being more receptive and open to this, as I think people are realizing, look, this isn’t, this isn’t something that’s just going to massively disrupt everything, and it’s an incremental addition, I guess, to this, this whole dynamic. So Amanda Annie, I’ll kick it over to you too, to just sort of weigh in on that of how you how you two are, you know what you’re seeing from your position at Sony?
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 07:45
Yeah, for sure. I was in clinic. You know when the announcement of over the counter is going to exist by, you know, year 2022, and it’s a it’s a scary thing, right? So changes is scary. I think a lot of audiologists don’t embrace change swiftly. You know, we are very busy clinicians, so I could only speak for myself. But when you think about something changing, it gets it gets scary, right? So you start to think, Okay, how does this change what I do on the daily? How might this change my clinics? You know, revenue. How is this going to change the patients that walk in the door? And I will say that I think we were met with a lot of that resistance in the beginning. For sure, you know, clinicians thinking this is not going to be better than the PSAPs that already exist. How can this possibly help my patients? This is just going to create more work for me. I will say, as the market has developed, there has been less and less of that hesitation and apprehension. I won’t say that we have, you know, every hearing care professional banging down our door for OTC devices. But there are a lot more hearing care providers who are definitely open to learning more about the offerings, and you know how it could enhance their clinic. You know, we are not at all suggesting that OTC devices replace prescription devices, replace the hearing care professional. We know that that is the, you know, gold standard of care. When I speak to hearing care professionals, I really try to convey that this is just a an offering that your clinic should have, not a replacement, but a complimentary service to what you’re already offering. What did I miss Annie? I think
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 09:38
that was a great overview I can add to early on when I heard about OTC, I was a pediatric audiologist, and I think we are the most intense version of body health, just out there. So I couldn’t even imagine, I remember, from my perspective, I couldn’t even imagine that there would even be a good or a safe option, right? Because all I could think of was PSAP. Prescription hearing aid. And so with this category where the Sony hearing aids fill in the self fitting category, which means you do an evaluation with the devices on to help guide the settings to be more personal and customized for the user, that’s not something I could even have imagined. I also didn’t imagine big players like wsa working with big players like Sony, right? Like I just imagined. I don’t know. How would we even meet that need? Who is that person that needs this? And I think Amanda did a good job, you know, explaining sort of that arc of what we see today. We see, I would say, we see everything from providers who still aren’t willing to learn about it to understand the value, all the way to providers who are consistently and successfully offering OTC and everything in the middle. And I think, of course, that has to do with behavioral change. It also has to do with education and confidence, right? I know for myself, if I don’t understand how a product works, I’m for sure not going to recommend it. And so there is a little leg work there as a provider to either invest a little time in training or a little space to have a conversation, like with someone like Amanda and I, who can give you the quick fly by of like, here’s what you need to know. Here’s how it works, here’s how we would recommend you offer it based on how your clinic works. And I think that’s part of it, right? So you have to understand and learn how the technology works to trust it, then you have to be willing to implement it. And so I think some providers, even providers, some who trust it, are worried about how to implement it, and that’s why, in our team, we intentionally spend time with providers talking about like, What’s your goal for OTC, what are you what’s your priorities in your clinics? Right? Can we? Can we find a way to have OTC strategically fill a gap for you, either for your patients or in your clinic schedule, in a way that is not being satisfied with your current offering? So as Amanda suggested, as like a complimentary tool to what you’re already using, and, at a minimum, what we want to make sure, and it’s why we don’t just do one on one conversations with HCPs. We do a lot of things on audiology online and other training opportunities that are broader, because at a minimum, I believe that as hearing care professionals, it is our job to be able to explain OTC, to be able to discuss it with a knowledgeable sense of understanding, at least, what is the difference between a PSAP and an OTC hearing aid and a prescription hearing aid, and then within that OTC category, because it’s confusing, there’s a lot of products out there, like I mentioned, that really range in price and quality that all call themselves OTC hearing aid. Yep, right. Like hundreds of them, it’s our job as providers to be able to say, and this is an OTC hearing aid, and this is why I would recommend X brand. I would recommend a Sony OTC hearing aid because it’s self fitting. Is built by somebody who knows and understands hearing aids. There’s unlimited customer support. They have clear warranty and return information, like all these things that kind of tip off that this is the safe and high quality OTC experience. So if they’re not going to sell it or offer it, I I strongly believe it is still our responsibility to be able to explain it and to guide our patients. Because the truth is, if, if I have an office and I have someone come in who’s a good candidate, they have mild sponge hearing loss, say they’re not ready for prescription hearing aid journey, whether it’s cost or time commitment, or you name the objections we hear all day, right? If I don’t give any input, they can literally walk into their car and order a hearing aid online. Yeah, right. And how do they know to choose? So, yeah, I love to at least help people get on the path. And I think I feel like I’m gonna have a little altruistic provider moment here. I feel strongly like that is our duty to at least if we don’t have the solution for them, or maybe we do decide to offer it, but even if we don’t have it, we should be able to help get them going. For the space builder, yeah,
Dave Kemp 14:08
I have a, there’s a quote. I’ve quoted this so many times in presentations. I’ll see if I can remember it off the top of my head. But it’s like, you know, hearing professionals lamenting the dwindling price of of like hearing aids, also need to recognize the, basically, like, the value of being a provision of knowledgeable expertise, right? And I’m like, That’s so on point with with this role. I mean, really, at the end of the day, people come in to the door and they say, I have this problem. And they’re lot of the time, they’re actually just highlighting a symptom. They’re like, I can’t hear my wife, or whatever it might be. And so you know that there’s, like, your job is then to really determine, like, what’s going on, and then ideally match them to. A solution. And so I feel like the one of the strongest arguments I’ve heard for why you should at least be involved in this is to understand that it’s happening, right? And like you cannot, you don’t want to be absent of this whole like, part of the offering, of part of what you could be provide, you know, the provision of knowledgeable expertise. And so I look at this, and I’m like, Okay, this is interesting. Because, you know, you obviously have, you know, one of the themes that we’ve been talking on the podcast a lot lately is, like, this whole element of the changing buying behaviors, right? And so, like, I feel like it’s a confluence of a lot of things. Like, first of all, you have just, just like, generally speaking, everybody is more savvy at digging up information online, and so I feel like that’s a market change. Even verse 510, years ago was you used to have a lot of people that came through the door, and you were the first sort of piece of information that they were accessing. They knew that they were like seeking you out because you were the one that was going to guide them through this. Well now, with YouTube and with all the different things that you can access online, you can sort of self educate yourself. And so I feel like you know, to just illustrate that is to say, if you have a patient come in, they’re aware of the OTC offering, and they have questions about it, and you are dismissive of it, or you don’t address those, then they’re they’re going to perceive that as this person isn’t as fully knowledgeable as what I’m sort of anticipating. And so not only are they going to potentially go in their car and leave and buy the hearing aids on through their phone? But I feel like, more importantly, it’s diminishing the way you’re perceived within your, like, local market. You want to be the expert for all this stuff, so even if your position is that, you know, right? You know, here’s a rundown of, like, some of the things about the Sony offering and maybe some competitors and all that. And here are ways that they differentiate. And you know, I only really deal in the prescription hearing aid world. And let me, you know, kind of guide you to a way to access these OTC devices. If that’s the route you want to go, you still maintain that, you know, provision of expertise. And for me, like as more and more time goes on, that is what defines the value proposition. Is like at the end of the day, who’s going to succeed in this world full of options, right? It’s going to be the people that are ordained experts within their community, people that are saying, I have a real problem here, and I have the opportunity to maybe go to Costco, I could try to do it myself, or maybe I just want to, like, go with the route of the the expert, right? And so I feel like neglecting this diminishes that. And for me, I’m like, that’s that is probably one of the reasons why I feel like you have to have at least a surface level knowledge of this stuff. I
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 18:04
think so too. And I think the important thing to consider, right? Like, if you think about the fundamentals of a professional working with people, your first job is to create rapport with the person that walks in, right, really hearing what is their problem and where are they in their journey. And I think, you know, when we consider OTC, it’s really a stepping stone, an entrance into the hearing journey. And so if you’re as a provider, able to meet that person where they are, maybe they are just looking for some occasional use, although our devices are designed to use all day, right? But from a price value perspective, they want occasional use of a product to them that doesn’t feel like a $6,000 problem, right? And they just want to hear their grandkids better making something up, right? But something we hear, yeah, if you can meet them with a solution that meets the value they’re looking for, you know, it’s a lower a lower price point, but you know it’s reliable for their say they have mild to moderate hearing loss. Of course, it’s we’re always talking about with OTC. Eventually they’re going to come back to you, right? They’re going to want more from their hearing aids. Their hearing loss is going to change. Maybe they don’t, but they be they move outside of the candidacy range of mild to moderate. And so if you can create that early rapport with a patient at the beginning of their journey, and get them to do something sooner. Which people do do with Sony OTC, we see them adopting products sooner than prescription hearing aids. Then you that person trusts you, and when they’re ready to buy whatever their next thing is. Maybe it’s another Sony hearing aid. Maybe it’s not. Maybe they want something with lots of programs, and, you know, different adjustments that OTC products don’t accommodate, they’re going to come to you right? And so I think it’s also about understanding that patient journey and finding the balance of where they are versus like, what’s your objective to try and sell right, and sort of meeting them in the mid. Because otherwise you end up having people who just walk out, and some of those people will go do something else by themselves. They’ll use all of our educational resources online and our online screener and help decide if it’s for them. But otherwise, some people might do nothing. Maybe they got brave to come in for that first meeting, and they kind of like, weren’t met with open conversation. And they’re like, it’s actually not that bad, right? So I think that’s one thing. And then the one other thing to consider about OTC family miracles, all the marketing around this OTC category has broadened the awareness of the hearing loss category as a whole. That is not just to benefit the OTC category, right? And that’s something that we work with on Sony Amanda, and I get to use our audiologist perspective and say like, Hey, we’re not marketing experts, but we know that more people need to do something about their hearing loss. And for some reason, all of us, big manufacturers haven’t quite solved the whole puzzle of getting everyone to do something sooner. So can we use the power of a brand like Sony and and apple and Bose and all the other players who have entered this conversation with or without product, to get everybody to start thinking about their hearing loss right and remembering only the people with mild to moderate are the ones that are right for OTC, but everybody else is still hearing and seeing all this advertising about like, Hey, look at all these products. Hey, what’s going on with your hearing health? And I think that’s a huge advantage that the OTC category offers professionals and everybody else involved in the space.
Dave Kemp 21:36
I totally agree. I mean, and I feel like one of the things to like, the Sony brand is very powerful, and it’s cool. I’m curious, like, what let’s get into, you know, some of the successes, I guess, that you all have had, you know, let’s talk about some real world scenarios of clinics that have embraced this. Can you walk me through maybe some of the advantages of what they found. I mean, is it impacting the patient demographic in any way? Is it opening the door to new types of patients? And you know, what are like? I feel like, that’s like, you’ve got a lot of people that I think are on the doorstep of this, of like, okay, I’m not willing to at least consider this. Can you? Can you, kind of give me a pitch on why, either one of you, you know, on on why it would make sense to incorporate, you know, having this as part of your offering. You
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 22:36
want to go ahead? Amanda, yeah,
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 22:37
I’ll take a stab at it so we see that our most successful providers are using it in, you know, not the sense that we might see traditional hearing aids being dispensed. So using it as you know, mobile outreach, maybe there they have a mobile bus that that goes out and serves the community, and it’s an easy way to help those with mild to moderate hearing loss without needing them to return to the office for that traditional hearing aid journey. We’ve got some, you know, clinicians who are starting to partner in the pharmacy space where, you know, we have this group of pharmacy experts who are so used to having to discuss and recommend and style over the counter products in general, that it just seems like a natural segue for pharmacies to also offer OTC devices, and, you know, by partying with the pharmacy and audiologist is not, you know, being cut out of the picture in that sense, because there will always be individuals who exceed that category of hearing loss, or, you know, want a little bit more of that professional support, and having that partnership with a local pharmacy acts as a referral source. And then we also see that there are, you know, hearing care professionals who are just selling OTC as backup options. So, you know, maybe we have our super active patients who want to wear their devices while they’re outside, mowing the lawn or playing a sport, or they want to take them with them when they’re traveling and leave their more expensive, expensive devices at home. That seems to also be another great way that clinicians are using this as a tool in their toolbox. You know, just one thing to call out is that a lot of clinics will also just use it as you know, they’re, they’re selling these OTC devices, but there’s no necessarily, you know, follow up involved. So they’re not tying up their clinic time to set up OTC devices or service OTC devices, because it is, you know, do it yourself, product for sure. They can offer their services as another way to generate revenue, but they don’t have to, you know, they’re still in the equation as saying, hey, you know, this could be a good option for you. This is what I recommend. But then they’re kind of, you know, walking away and not necessarily needing to have the fall. What they might with a prescription patient, something
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 25:03
I would add to that too. Thanks Amanda for calling those things out, and specifically, in that last scenario, the providers who aren’t spending all the extra time, it’s because they’re leveraging our Sony here team. So our Sony Support Team is a two tiered team. Amanda is part of tier two, so we have audiologists involved in that team, so that if your patient buys Sony OTC and they have any question from literally unboxing to detailed suggestions on how to adjust the device, including counseling about being a new hearing aid user, a lot of our device users are. That’s what our support team does, and that’s unlimited care. So I think we don’t brag about that enough, with super comprehensive care that they can access at any time. There is no expiration to it. The products do have a one year warranty, repair warranty, so that’s something about how functionally supporting the products works. But we’re always there to answer the phone and support it, and that includes that audiologist expertise, which is super helpful. So our providers that don’t spend the time doing it, they know that there’s audiologists on the other end if their patients need that help, right? Which I think makes a huge difference, and is not the standard of service for all OTC products. It’s something that we were really intentional about, because we know, as Amina mentioned like this, is designed to be an independent journey, that’s the point, right? But that doesn’t mean people don’t need help, right? We have younger people using our products, but we also have people who struggle, just like with their smartphones, like we see in clinic all day, right? So we help people pair their phones, we help them get the settings set up, things like that that we see people trip over in our prescription world all the time. And then the other thing I would would mention is, which Amanda was getting at is maximizing the value of OTC for the clinic. So some providers have the preference to be the only point of contact and support for their patient, and if that’s the case, we encourage them to sell an OTC service package on top of the price of their product. And it matters, because OTC, because it’s independent, is functionally an unbundled journey. And so if you’re going to spend time with your patient on OTC, great. Charge them for it, right? Charge them for your time to make sure it’s accounted for. It shouldn’t be a free service that comes with the devices, but they get for free, is us, and that’s for free, and that’s a lot, but if you’re going to give your time on top of that, be mindful of it, right? That’s one of the things that we talk about. And the other thing is, when you think about the purpose of OTC for your space, we have some providers who are really invested in selling the product, and we also have some providers who are more invested in sort of like seeing how it goes, but using it as lead generation to bring people into their clinic to talk about it, because just because you advertise OTC doesn’t mean it is the right choice for everybody who asks about it, right? And so it leads into new people walking in the doors that Sony brand name, right? And and, of course, you have to be prepared to have that conversation we talked about, which is, what is Sony? How is it different from what you offer, or from what I can get from Best Buy or Amazon, things like that. So I think we see a variety of different things. The one last use case I’ll mention is that we often will train if the clinic has somebody who’s a non HCP, like perhaps an audiology assistant, or the person that supports with front desk, and that person has capacity, we have trained those people to learn how to talk about and set up and troubleshoot OTC products, because in terms of like initial setup and usage, you don’t need to be a hearing care provider. That’s the point, right? Like people are supposed to be able to do it by themselves. And so maximizing the time of a non HCP in your clinic, if you have it to
Dave Kemp 28:42
spare. Okay, I’m going to try to process all that. And I’m going to try to, you know, I’m going to try to, like, summarize some of the things that really stand out in my mind. So first of all, I think the fact that, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, about, you know, being able to sort of preserve your value proposition, and if your value proposition is largely rooted in your expertise in ensuring patient satisfaction, like the last thing you want to do is put them into a device that lacks the same standard of care that you provide, and then also being able to offload that though, to Sony, knowing that there are going to be audiologists that are actually doing that, that’s very comforting. But also being able to work with you all to train front office staff, very highly relevant, topical thing going on right now. I mean, I know I’m sitting right here. I have a AAA, special invitation for Audiology assistance. Thing that I know that’s going to be a huge track at this year’s conference is audiology assistance, right? Like, that’s a huge buzzword is, how do you, how do you take front office staff and make them do more with them, right? And so I feel like all those are really, really popular. Positive. And again, though, I think that, you know, this whole notion of, like, I just sat through a webinar where they were, you know, it’s not a secret, like, one of the most expensive and challenging parts of this whole business as a private practitioner is patient acquisition. So if Sony is going to help, you know, provide you with new customers, new new patients. They’re going to help reduce your customer acquisition cost. That’s a huge benefit too, right? So for me, I’m kind of going through this from the position of like, I’m almost going to kind of take the the other side of this in, you know, for from the sense of like, I would think that one of the biggest objections you run into is okay, like at the end of the day, I have my prescription hearing aids, and then so for whether it’s the tested not fit, or it’s the new patients, or whoever it might be, you know, you’ve got this sort of second category that doesn’t meet the for whatever reason they don’t meet the criteria for prescription hearing aids. And so it feels like most people are opting for one of two directions. One would be the like older technology prescription hearing aids that are lower costs, that are kind of on the same price point, more or less than an OTC device. But I feel like, you know what I’m sort of hearing from you all is it sounds like you know you all are developing different ways to stand apart from that and bring value to the professional as this brand to justify why you should be that second option, why there are advantages to having that be, at least have that as like, one of the options for the second category is this OTC, because you have all the things that we just talked about, from the support to the customer acquisition, and the way in which people are seeing ads for that, and then they’re coming in through your doors, largely tied to all that. So that, for me, is like, where I would imagine a lot of the status quo is right now, is that probably what you’re running into the most, is that idea of like, well, I typically just use, you know, for those patients, I typically use whatever my preferred brand is. I use, like, the older generation product from three, three years ago that, you know, now, basically prices out roughly around the same as where this is. So that’s very informative for me, but I guess I’m just curious to, like, hear from you too, is that is that kind of what you’re seeing, is that one of the main objections that you hear is, you know, with regard to OTC in the professional channel, is, well, why would I do any OTC when I could just do all prescription
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 32:42
go? Ahead Amanda and Bob, I was going to say, I’ve definitely seen that, you know, in social media and in audiology groups, right, where people will say, I’m not offering OTC when I can offer, you know, low end for the same margins, right? And as a clinician, yeah, I’ve done that too. When you have someone who comes in and, you know, is very budget conscious, that might feel like the best route to go, but if we think about what we’re sacrificing sometimes in those low end devices, you know, we’re sacrificing a lot of listening and noise, and we as humans are not in quiet environments all the time, right? So we see this demand for our hearing instruments to be able to handle these, these busy environments. And you know, for example, our E 10 device was ranked as having the best, you know, listening and noise. So why wouldn’t you recommend something that’s a newer technology has better technology and still keeping that, you know, margin, versus something that is 345, years old, just to, you know, meet your patient’s budget where it’s at?
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 33:55
Yeah, I would agree with that totally. I think, yeah, the technology is newer. How do you see hearing aids. That’s really what you were saying in a smart way, right? Like, but just to cut to the chase, it’s newer. And of course, we can only speak to our technology specifically, not for the entire OTC category, but we really focus on those specific needs, like listening and noise like, that’s what we know, where we know people struggle, so that’s what we make sure works the best in our products, right? And I think too, you know, we could, I don’t want to loop back and rehash, but it leans back into that behavior change, right? People also don’t just choose prescription hearing aids because of maintaining their margins, or that the margin is similar, maybe, but also because it’s what they know, right? So it’s probably in the mind of a clinician faster to fit an older technology hearing aid of the software they know, than to take a one hour training on Sony OTC hearing aids and try to figure it out, like what they’re going to do with it, right? But I think the important thing to know of like onboarding with these products, we have such a range of learning and training for. Providers. So if you have 15 minutes for us, we can teach you what you need to know about these products. In 15 minutes. If you want more, we have up to hours and hours and hours of training and learning and troubleshooting we can teach you. So I think you know, in terms of barrier to entry for providers, it’s that concern of like, oh, how long is it going to take for me to figure out this claim right? And so I’ll just, I already have this, or I can just call my rep and get you know older technology that’s all faster. And so I think just reminding providers that we were providers too, we know that you barely have time to eat lunch, right? So we try to be mindful of how we spend our time together to make it worth your time and and worth the learnings. The one other thing I want to add, David, which is not specifically related to your question, but I think it’s important, like, if we just take a minute to zoom out and think about the impact, the broad impact, of OTC, because I think as providers, especially providers who aren’t talking or advertising or mentioning OTC, they feel like because no one’s kicking down my door. This is not happening. We’ve said many times it’s happening. I recently looked at some some overall market data, and just looking at like the impact of, if we look at not just hearing aids sold, but lives changed, so to speak, in the prescription market versus the OTC market, and this is in the US. So like in 2024 we estimate with a compilation of data that about 2.5 million lives are changed by prescription hearing aids. In 2024 about a million lives are changed by OTC hearing aids and the growth rate of the market. Of course, prescription hearing aids dominate the market. That’s still true, and the OTC market is growing a little bit slower than we expected. That’s also true. But if you think about the impact of for people, right? And you think about the growth and trajectory, OTC hearing aids can have a significant impact on a very large number of people. They already are having this impact. So that is all to say, like, the way that people usually buy them is the easiest way to find them, right? And that’s retail spaces. That’s your Amazon. That’s your best buy. That’s your things. Like people who are putting money into advertising these things, right? That’s just how it goes. How do people get news and make decisions about what to buy? But I think my call out here is like we already see. Although the OTC market is new and small compared to the prescription hearing aid, it’s already having almost half, at least half the effect of on the number of people in the US. And that’s huge, right? If you think about it, from the impact we can have as providers, we also know that there’s, there’s not enough of us to solve all the hearing loss problems. There’s just, even if we wanted to all work seven days a week, which I don’t think we all do, we couldn’t, we couldn’t answer all the needs of our patients. And so if we zoom out a little bit, I think it’s about taking the perspective of like we respect the gold standard, and that’s where we start, but we can’t do everything by ourselves, right? And so what are the solutions that we can leverage to still help people in a way where they are in their journey?
Dave Kemp 38:13
Yeah, I mean, I’ve talked about this before. I’m not sure of many other supply and demand equations that seem as asymmetric as hearing loss to hearing providers. And it’s interesting because, you know, I feel like there’s obviously, you know, market share, and there’s like, it seems like there’s, you know, anytime I see, like, an HIA report or something like that, it’s always about like, you know, Sonova took another percentage of of the VA share or something like that. But it’s also rooted in this idea of, like, this pie is, like, pretty cemented into place, but, but it’s like, it does not sort of mesh with then the other macro level data point, which is how pervasive hearing loss is and how untreated it is. And so we’re talking about, like, this pretty much consistent, you know, up into the right incrementally growing prescription market, yet there’s not it’s never going to be able to meet the actual needs of the market. And so, like, something very dramatic is going to have to happen for that to change. And, you know, I think that the reality is is, like, the AUD degree and programs aren’t growing in a way that’s going to match those two, you know, symmetrically. So it’s like, okay, so how does this whole thing sort of square out like this whole equation. And for me, I feel like it ultimately just comes down to the professional has to figure out a way to be more. They have to, again, administer that. They have to be that provision of knowledgeable expertise. And you know, this is how I feel like you can go from i. 15% of people in the US having, you know, being treating their hearing loss to 30% treating their hearing loss, you know, something that’s like a dramatic uptick. The only way I really ever see that happening is if there is this, like, huge, massive surge in devices that that don’t require so much of a, I guess, like this, this current model, right? Like I have to go and I have to see the professional, and then there’s all these follow up appointments and all that. It’s just limiting the already scarce bandwidth. And so it’s like, okay, so well, what could change that not I feel like we’re sort of seeing the early beginnings of this where it’s and I think this is, again, the strongest argument for the professional is like the prescription market will will remain for the foreseeable future, and those are going to probably dominate your time in clinic, But if you can become part of the broader conversation of of these supposed million people you know, or you know, roughly whatever, 50% of the prescription market that are engaging in this more Do It Yourself model, you know, there’s just, I feel like a tremendous opportunity, If somebody can, if there’s a way to more or less connect the supply and the demand in a way that is more conducive to the, you know, the reality of like one professional to knowing people, or whatever it is you know, so and for me, it’s like that, if you can, if You can, like, right now it might seem trivial, of like, okay, I carry a Sony OTC product. But as that continues to grow and compound on itself, you’re just going to have more and more people that are aware of all this. And so that was the point I was making early on, is to say the really, the last thing that you want to do in this emerging market is to remove yourself and say, I’m not really a participant in that. I’m only focusing on the prescription market. Because the reality is, is, like here in 2025 that it might be the case where, like, you know, you only hear about somebody mentioning OTC, maybe one in every 10 or 20 patients. But if that continues to grow and grow and grow, I just I worry about the professional potentially, you know, sort of removing themselves from this whole dynamic of where a lot of this whole patient journey now begins, where it’s like people can intuitively understand, I probably need to go see a professional. And there’s a lot of market data that suggests that that first step is so it’s such a big obstacle for a lot of people to there’s, there’s a lot of, you know, emotion wrapped up in that. There’s, you know, you’re, you’re coming to terms with the fact that maybe you have, you know, quote, unquote, like this lifelong disability. And so I can understand why it takes so much to get somebody in the door the first time. And I feel like what OTC is kind of ultimately addressing is making that first step more palatable. But it’s a journey, as we all know, like it’s a progression. And so if you’re not part of that first, you know, segment of the patient journey, how would those patients ever know that you’re, you know, like that, they should go and see you for these next steps along the way. And that’s, that’s what worries me a little bit about this, is that it’s not to say that you have to, you have to be like, you know, selling all these devices and all that. But I, to your point, Annie, I do think that you need to, you need to be aware of this emerging market and, like, you know, kind of what exists and what people are seeing online and and in the ways in which their perceptions are being shaped
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 43:51
and thinking about too, like, you know, wsa, right. Our bread and butter is prescription hearing aids and and we I’ve offered OTC in addition to that, so as a partnership that also has a primary business that focuses on prescription hearing aids, I think it should be important for providers to understand like this is supposed to be extra to help you do extra for your business. Obviously, right? Because think about what our primary bread and butter is. And so I think the call out here is, is exactly what we’ve talked about, which is that we care about growing your overall business and the overall number of people you support. And OTC is one more thing to do it. And I think too like to your point, David, as things change, and we could probably have a whole spin off conversation about this, but I think, and as a writer myself, like we lean into what we’re most comfortable with as a profession, we tend to do this and kind of really dig our heels down because we’ve done a lot of things, like we’ve tested hearing the same way for decades, right? And not saying there’s a different way, but it’s just like how audiology. Is right? It’s like kind of old school and how we do things. And I think we should really, as providers, be challenging ourselves to think about what is happening with technology in general. How is AI affecting hearing aids? What are the new categories? What are the new ways I should be offering these things to my patients, like, if we just stay on our little path of prescription hearing aids, I think we’re missing the opportunity of technology advancing all around us. I mean, what do you think? Amanda,
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 45:29
yeah, I completely agree. So even if we, you know, zoom out a little bit and look at how we just how some hearing care professionals are really just diversifying themselves in the community. You know, we have professionals who are offering remote care, who are offering mobile care, who are specializing in, you know, some of those parts of audiology that not everyone does. So it’s, I completely agree, you know, I think as a profession, we’re on this, you know, narrow path, a lot of it, you know, probably boils down to, this is what I know. This is what I had time to do. I don’t really have time to look at new, innovative ideas. But I really think that to survive in in our world as audiologists, we really that we need to open up our blinders and see what else is out there. You know, how could we innovate our practices? What? What can we learn? And, you know, to a point, if we’re only prescribing prescription hearing aids, right, we’re still constantly having to learn about what’s new. You know, what is my preferred manufacturer offering now? What are they launching next week? How am I going to integrate this into my practice? Oh, my goodness, these are more expensive. How am I going to, you know, quote, unquote, sell this to my patients? So adding in, you know, OTC as a service is is really no different than than learning about new products that our preferred manufacturers are consistently launching, right? So, yeah, I agree. I think the smart, savvy audiology practices are going to just continually have to innovate in and just really embrace what’s new and what’s out there and and just do all the things right to
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 47:04
survive. And maybe just one more thing I’ll add is like, we shared some of the use cases where we see success, right? But there are also lots of things that we’re trying every day with providers. Like, we’ve providers who are like, I want to try this thing with a pharmacist, if you guys ever done something like that, and we’re usually like something similar, but not something exactly like that. So we are partnering with hearing care professionals who have creative ideas, whether it’s partnering with someone else in the community or wanting to offer OTC in a unique way in their clinic. And so if there are providers out there that think like whatever we just described doesn’t quite, quite fit the bill of what you want to try with OTC, let us know, because I think it would be naive of us to say that we have all the answers in this brand new market right now, I think we have a lot of a lot of initial answers and ideas and paths we would direct you on. If you came to us saying, What should I do? Certainly we could guide you, but you know your practice and your patients the best. So if you come to us and you say, I have x, y, need, could we try this thing? We’ll probably be like, Yeah, let’s try it, right, and let’s learn from it. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t, but my point being, we’re spending a lot of time partnering with hearing care professionals to work through new ideas and see how they impact their patients and their practices too. So we can also hold ourselves accountable to the growing of while we have this innovative technology, the growing and understanding of how can we implement it in creative and actually helpful ways for hearing care professionals?
Dave Kemp 48:30
Yeah. I mean, I feel like the, you know, there’s a lot of options out there for OTC, you know, options, right? And I feel like, kudos to kudos to wsa for this approach, because I think that it’s, you know, twofold, like one, Sony is a really cool brand that I think I can imagine a lot of professionals being excited about the opportunity to dispense that brand in the all of the like sort of secondary effects that you can a lot of The benefits of that, like I was talking about with the customer acquisition costs and all that. And then I also think that having this, like, really big focus on audiology, like, you know, this is kind of like the OTC offering for the audiologist, by the audiologist. And I think that’s a really cool distinction of like, the is helping people to understand that, you know, look, we don’t know how this all is going to look, right? We don’t know where all the opportunities are. We have building blocks here that we can play with that are different than the prescription building blocks that you have. They’re complimentary to them. And so I feel like all of this is, it’s a really exciting time, because it it is like it feels very much like when I see and talk to you in like, a year from now, it feels like you’re going to have a whole load of new use cases and updates of how people are finding success with this. Because it’s sort of impossible to really know you’re just equipping them with, you know, a. The building blocks to maybe get savvy. So as we come to the close here, I just want to kind of understand, you know, for anybody that’s listening, that wants to take the plunge, that wants to do this, walk us through how like, what is that first step? Are they reaching out to one of you two, and then what does that look like? Can you just kind of walk us through that onboarding journey.
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 50:21
Yeah. I mean, why don’t you go ahead and on
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 50:24
fill in some details? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that, you know, the biggest benefit of working with us is we are a small team, so you’re going to talk to Annie or I, and, yeah, like Annie mentioned, we’re so open to just new and creative ideas and how to make this really work for your practice. So you’ll need to be a Signia or a Widex customer. If you’re not already, don’t worry. It’s very simple. We will get that set up for you, you know, and then from that point, we’ll discuss a little bit about what our product offerings are. You know what that MSRP might look like? You know, really talking about your goals of your clinic and understanding, you know how OTC can be a tool to to really help you meet and exceed those goals. We have a ton of training, like Annie mentioned, that we can offer you. We can offer your staff. We have marketing materials that we can offer you. And I think one of the biggest pluses is there are no kit minimum, so you do not need to commit to X amount of units to utilize our services.
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 51:35
Yeah, I think, well summarize, I mean, the point is, you get in contact with one of us, and we’re happy to share our contact information David in whatever way that makes sense for this forum. And then we make a plan for you together. And like Amanda mentioned and I touched on earlier, that could be a very brief plan, depending on your time and capacity. It could be more extensive, multi stage learning plan. It’s really about how much time you want to invest in implementing it. But we could give you everything you need to know to get started in 15 minutes. So starting off with that conversation, and then sort of jumping off based on what your needs are and and your wishes are for implementing and learning about Sonia TC,
Dave Kemp 52:14
it’s awesome. It’s really cool. I just, you know, I like I said, I feel like we’ve been on a little bit of a progression in the sentiment from it being something that people maybe were perceiving as a threat, and I think now a lot of that has dissipated. I don’t hear many people talking, if anything, they’re talking about managed care. They’re not talking about OTC anymore. And so I just think that it’s, I think now we’re, we’re sort of at this point where, you know, it’s obviously, sort of, it’s established as a new emerging market. There’s real demand for this. We know there’s a ton. The total addressable market is big and and I feel like that. They’re going to have to, we’re going to have to augment the prescription hearing aid market, with the OTC market, in order to really fully address the, you know, the the sheer pervasiveness of hearing loss that is only seeming to just get worse and go younger. And so I feel like OTC jives with that too. Is like, it’s just something that really, I feel like resonates like a Sony device, has some serious brand power with the younger generations too. So I think there’s a lot of a lot of advantages for professionals to engage again, even if it’s not to go full bore, like selling devices, but just having a good understanding of what exists, what’s out there. I think there’s, there’s advantages to that. So closing thoughts, I’ll just kick it over to either one of you, and then we’ll wrap,
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 53:54
yeah, I think I’ll just wrap up with saying, you know, we love the opportunity to have conversations like this, because I think it’s important to see some of the faces and the brains behind these ideas, and hopefully now, you know, for those who are listening have this concept of like Amanda and I were clinicians. Where did we come from? And I can speak for myself that if I didn’t believe in the safety and efficacy of this product for who it’s for, I would not spend my time doing this all day. Probably this clear, based on my history of being a pediatric audiologist, very ethical. And so, you know, I think it’s just helpful to see who’s working on this and who directly, can you get the help from when you have the questions about OTC, we have a ton of information on the market in general, and how it’s developing, and so if this conversation leaves you with even more questions, we’re happy to just be OTC resources for information. Help empower you with that knowledge and build up your confidence to you know, like we’ve talked about over and over in this conversation, but just have the confidence to talk. About It with your patients. So we’re here for conversations about sales. We’re here for conversations about conversations about OTC as we learn and grow in this space. And so just opening that door for us to be a resource to those of you in the HCP community who are looking for just more clear information about what’s going on and how it works.
Amanda Fadden, Au.D. 55:21
Anything to add Amanda, I think that’s a great summary. I will add that, you know, as in my position, I not only get to work with HCPs, I also work directly with the end user. So just want to give you a boost of confidence that your, your patients are in great hands with me and my colleague, Katie. You know, we’re, we do a lot of counseling on the phone that we’ve done in clinic, so your patients are in great hands. And, yeah, I guess the only other thing that I’ll, I’ll close with is in talking to, you know, our end users, the Sony name is so powerful. There are so many customers who have purchased this device just because it is a Sony device. So, you know, take with that what you will. But just like Annie, you know, if I didn’t believe in this product, I would be to Apples clinic, I am sure. So, thank for taking the opportunity to let us share our message absolutely
Dave Kemp 56:22
well. Annie Amanda, this has been a really awesome conversation. I appreciate you two coming on today. Thanks for everybody who tuned in here to the end and we will chat with you next time. Cheers.
Annie Duchen, Au.D. 56:32
Thank you.
